Though interviewing Susan would have been ideal, her whirlwind tour through the U.S. didn't allow it. Instead, here is her background, struggles, and successes compiled from my notes when she spoke at Yeehaw Farm. A kind, generous, and congenial person, I am thankful for the time I got to spend hearing her story. May my second hand account do her life's work a modicum of justice.

In early October, 2012, I joined Oxfam and the Women In Agriculture Network to take a tour of Yeehaw Farm in Duncannon, Pennsylvania. Yeehaw Farm is a multi-generational farm operated by Judi Radel that moved to sustainable practices 5 years ago. The farm raises cows, goats, and chickens, as well as vegetables and grains, selling the resulting products to local customers via Farmer's Markets, their own on-site farm stand, and several CSA options. This tour, and the thoughts that come from it, integrate well with the conversations had with Warren Brush about broadscale permaculture, and Seth Wilner on meeting farmer's where they are to get appropriate buy-in. We share with the farmer's but first must seek to understand the place they operate from. If you have an opportunity to join a farm tour and see local operations, I highly recommend it. Observe what they share, interact with the others in the group, and leave with a new wealth of resources.

Listen to the episode for the full review. In the meantime, for those of you who decided to stop by the website, here is the short version: This book is good. Quite good in fact. Another definite to place on a permaculture practitioner's or enthusiast's bookshelf next to the works of Mollison, Whitefield, Morrow, and Fukuoka. An easy read, the pace of the prose grabbed my attention from the introduction by David Holmgren and kept me reading through to the appendices: A, B, and C. For anyone just starting out, or someone whose sown seed, transplanted trees, and integrated form and function, "AH HA!" moments abound. New knowledge hides within these pages for anyone who seeks it out. Of most value is the Garden Farm Pattern Language gifted to us through this work. This single chapter, and the proceeding one, make this book worth more than the cover price. The integration of ideas and design elements into practical placement via a common language integrate the sometimes seperate parts of our design towards a more cohesive whole. If you've made it to this point and haven't done so yet: Buy This Book!

In this episode my guest is Mary Johnson and our conversation is an introduction to the idea of Nutrient Dense Farming. Mary is a permaculture teacher, owner of Watershed Resource Consultants, co-founder of Terra-Genesis International, and holds a Master's of Science in Plant and Soil Science. She's worked with a variety of partner organizations on projects all over the world including Brazil, Kenya, and, as you will hear in the interview, Panama. (Mary's first interview) This interview serves as a brief overview of Nutrient Dense Farming: how increase the nutrition of our foods by building better soil and a simple way to measure these changes with a simple handheld tool. To learn more you will want to read and research on your own. Resources to help you along are provided below. After this conversation three questions came to mind: 1. What nutrients do plants needs? 2. What are sources for these nutrient? 3. How can I apply permaculture to acquire, rather than buy, these nutrients and build soil? Just as Mary provided us with an introduction to nutrient dense farming, my thoughts here are an overview. If you would like me to research these ideas in-depth and provide a full episode, or series, on nutrients, soil amendments, and dynamic accumulating plants, I can do that. Let me know. So, what nutrients do plants need? Humans use fat, protein, and carbohydrates in large quantities, these are our macronutrients, plants have their own: carbon (C), oxygen (O), and Hydrogen (H), as well as nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P), and potassium (K). The first three plants get from the air and water which are then processed via photosynthesis. The last three, and the other nutrients, come from the soil which we amend and build to assist our plants. If you've handled a bag of fertilizer the NPK numbers refer to Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium, in that order, with the letters corresponding to the entry on the periodic table of elements. Then come the secondary nutrients: Calcium (Ca), Magnesium (Mg), and Sulfur (S). The micronutrients, are a longer list: Boron (B), Chlorine (Cl), Cobalt (Co), Copper (Cu), Iron (Fe), Manganese (Mn), Molybdenum (Mo), Nickel (Ni), Silicon (Si), Sodium (Na), Zinc (Zn), and Vanadium (Va). The primary and secondary nutrients are fairly simple to test for at most soil labs. The micro-nutrients may require more specialized labs to sort out for you. If you want to have these soil tests done there, in the United States, Aglabs.com can provide these services. Elsewhere in the world contact a local soil or environmental testing lab and ask them if they provide micro-nutrient soil test and they should be able to help you. The PDF on plant nutrients from NorthEastern Oklahoma A&M I like for the simplicity in explaining each nutrient, as well as how they impact plants, which soils are likely to have issues, and additional information. NorthEastern Oklahoma A&M Plant Nutrient PDF Prepared with the information in that document, combined with a soil analysis including trace minerals, you can determine what amendments to add and in what quantities to build your soil to an ideal mix for your plants. Which brings me to the second question: What are sources for these nutrients? The list of amendments useful for any particular nutrient, of course, varies. Bone meal is good for phosphate and calcium. Compost is rich in nitrogen and carbon. Urine is high in nitrogen, with good quantities of potassium, and phosphorus. Greensand is chock full of potassium, iron, magnesium, silica, and many other trace minerals. A trip to the garden center or DIY shop can provide bags and bags of everything we could generally needs, but what if you are looking for one particular nutrient? In that case a little bit of research is your friend. I chose the first nutrient on our list: boron, and did a web search “boron for the garden”. A link took me to an article from Spectrum Analytic, a testing lab in Ohio. At the bottom was a list of sources for boron. Surprisingly a common household product, Borax, is a source. You can do this for every nutrient you may need to get your soil started in the right direction. And our last question: How can I apply permaculture to acquiring, rather than buying, the nutrients and build soil? Mary provided a good description of this in her discussion of the Panamanian village: use your ability to observe to determine where plants will grow best. Use your knowledge: If you know certain plants share similar requirements and growing conditions, look for them in the landscape and grow your similar plant there. Experiment with slow and simple solutions: plant trials in the landscape and find where conditions are the best . Value your renewable resources by using your accumulating plants, like comfrey, as slash and mulch plants. Use those same plants to mine nutrients from one area and move the minerals, now trapped in the plant tissue, somewhere else. A good foundation in the ethics and principles of Permaculture allow you to truly design anything. And remember: Permaculture is, as a design system, largely based on our available information and the ability to apply that information creatively. We now live in a world that is more connected than any other time in history. You can find solutions to almost any question related to building a better world. Sponsors Nancy Grove and everyone at Old Path Farm Tony Murlin Resources Dr. Carey Reams Dr. Elaine Ingham International Ag Labs Remineralize the Earth Bionutrient Food Association Dan Kittredge Alan Chartock in Conversation with Dan Kittredge Ray Archuleta (Web Article about his work)

I spoke with Seth because of the potential synergistic role between Holistic Management, Whole Farm Planning, and Permaculture to provide profitable productive broad-scale models acceptable to modern conventional farms while also caring for the farmers, consumers, planet, plants, and animals involved. Recent guests such as Warren Brush and Andrew Faust set my thoughts moving on the leverage points for how to grow these ideas beyond the backyard. Connecting with farmers directly, first with those who are interested in the sustainable processes Permaculture offers, and moving upwards and outward can bring the concepts of practical permaculture to the forefront of a new green revolution. There is also a disclaimer for one of the portions of this interview. I ask Seth to clarify the information on the H2A visa program for a migrant farmworker. He shares what he knows about the program to answer my questions. However, he is not involved with this process directly and his statements should not be used as professional advice on the H2A visa. If you need someone to help you please contact a lawyer familiar with the program. When it comes to Whole Farm Planning and getting to know more about farmers and agriculture, there are some places I recommend you begin looking. Since permaculture deals with resilient and sustainable systems, see if there is a sustainable agriculture organization in your area and look into the classes and networking opportunities available.

As the activities of farming slow down and we move into the winter, the focus shifts to more social events. If you do get involved use the principles of permaculture, like observing and interacting, or use slow and small solutions, as social guidelines when in these environments. Talk less. Listen more. Ask questions when you don't understand. Hear what people are saying. Though I'm not a farmer, I openly admit that when introductions go around the table. I'm honest that I practice permaculture and my role is as an educator, not a farmer, I'm here to learn and I've been welcomed for it. Use a search engine, a phone book, a local farmer, or any other resource you can to ask around and you can probably find an organization to connect with to learn more about the current state of agriculture and farmers. Take a step, break out of the box, and see what ways you can help use the permaculture model to help others build a better world.

Resources
Holistic Management International
Savory Institute
Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education
The Organic Farmer's Business Handbook by Richard Wiswall

In addition to his work as an author, Eric's diverse background means he's spent his time breeding plants and saving seeds, as well as teaching classes that expand the ways in which we can build a better a better world. You will find much of wthis his website perennialsolutions.org. He is also building the Apios Institute which focuses on regenerative perennial agriculture for a temperate climate. He also happens to be a heck of a nice guy that made for an easy free flowing interview in which we discuss some listener questions submitted via the show's Facebook page, and then delve into a conversation about perennial plants, the broad-scale application of permaculture, and removing some of the fear factor of implementing a forest garden. Throughout you will hear both of us touch on plants we would like to see improved and simple ways anyone who is growing a garden can help domesticate and improve edible perennials.

Resources
Eric Toensmeier
Perennial Solutions
Edible Forest Gardens
Keyline Design
USDA PLANTS Database
Books
Billy Joe Tatum's Wild Foods Field Guide and Cookbook (Out-of-Print. Bookfinder.com link)
Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties by Carol Deppe
Creating a Forest Garden by Martin Crawford
Edible Water Gardens by Nick Romanowski (Out-of-Print. Bookfinder.com link)
The New American Landscape: Leading Voices on the Future of Sustainable Gardening
Return to Resistance: Breeding Crops to Reduce Pesticide Dependence by Raoul Robinson
Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
Wild Urban Plants of thr Northeast - A Field Guide

Thank you to Toby Howl for getting my mind started with this idea and getting me to turn it into an episode. The first set of notes on this subject included many facts and figures facts and figures as I fell into my normal routine of wanting to break everything down into discrete pieces: how much tuition is collected, what is spent where, and so on. I didn't like how that worked out as the show became more technical and numbers focused. This is a more general look at the class costs related to tuition, the amount of time a teacher spends developing their curriculum, and wrap up with whether or not a PDC is worht the cost. I refere to my teacher training because we openly discussed many of these topics. The teacher training covered both how to improve as instructors and how to handle the logistics of planning, scheduling, and presenting a full PDC. My frame of reference at the time, and copious notes from that experience, provided a clearer picture of what goes into a class. My PDC took place for a few weekend days a month over 7 months compared to the teacher training which was a one week intensive, which I feel is indicative of the expectations in a 2 week on-site PDC. If you've priced a Permaculture Design Course in the United States, they usually run in the $1000-2000 range, with the average in the middle of around $1500 for a 2-week, on-site, intensive. The lower cost is usually for a weekend course spread out over several months, where everyone commutes to the site, and the higher end for more expensive or exotic locations. If you compare a PDC to a college course, this is around the price for 6 credit hours at a community college. The comparison is fair because the amount of time spent in a PDC is similar to the time spent taking 6 credit hours of courses at a college. With each credit hour representing 1 hour of classroom instruction and 1-3 hours of homework, per week, over a 12 week semester, a student will spend around 80 hours (6x13) in a class room for 6 credits, plus another 80-240 (1x80 - 3x80) hours outside of class on homework, compared to the 72+ hours of instruction for the PDC. From my own experience, I spend around 250 hours outside my PDC reading, working on homework assignments, and preparing the final design project. Plus, at least at a 2-week intensive, you will have a place to stay and have food provided for the cost, increasing the value. One thing to remember is that permaculture courses are generally not subsidized in any way. There are no tax breaks, government funds, loans, or other resources used to cover any funding gaps or to pay for the administrative staff a college or university has that handles incidentals. For many permaculture teachers they and their team, if they have one, handle everything. The tuition paid towards a PDC truly goes to cover the full cost of the class. Students, in addition to providing some pay for the instructors, are also paying the overhead: insurance, renting the site location, covering taxes, advertising, professional fees like a lawyer or accountant, running a website, providing guest instructors with an honorarium or other payment for their time, as well as food for the class and someone to cook. I mention this last piece because during my Teacher Training we talked about the cost of some these fees and I was surprised to learn that the cost of food, especially to cover the myriad of dietary requirements, was around 25% of the price. That comes off the top before the class begins. Of the monies raised from tuition, upwards of 70 to 80% goes toward these costs, leaving around 20-30% to pay the teachers. But, I've only been to one class that had a single teacher. My PDC had 2. My teacher training had 3. Look at a PDC listing online and you will usually see 2 or more primary facilitators, plus a list of guest instructors who, as mentioned, are also usually paid. That just counts the dollar figure and doesn't include any of the preparation time that goes into the course materials. Though some resources exist that provide set permaculture curriculum outlines, such as Rosemary Marrow's Earth User's Guide to Permaculture – Teacher's Notes, or the chapter by chapter breakdown in Mollison's Permaculture: A Designers' Manual, every instructors chooses their focus and how to present the content. My PDC started with and focused heavily on the ethics and principles of permaculture. In a conversation with Andrew Millison, if my memory is correct at the moment, he chooses to start with reading and mapping the landscape. There is also an ongoing conversation about what to include in a PDC beyond the basics that Mollison originally framed, with some courses including more information and hours of material. To that end, each instructor largely develops their own curriculum and materials, which requires time. I can say unequivocally that a PDC instructor spends many many hours getting ready for their class. During my teacher training, and reflected in my own experience just putting together the information for this show, every hour of classroom instruction takes between 1 and 20 hours of planning, practicing, and assembling material to suit the location, audience, and other factors for that particular class. The 1-20 hour figure doesn't include the ongoing professional development necessary to stay current on permaculture trends and to teach an appropriate class. This rather large time requirement is one of the reasons why I'm reaching to you, my audience, in September of 2012, to see if there is interest in an online PDC sometime in 2013. Even with all of my notes, experience, and resources, I've got several hundred hours of preparation before accepting the first student. This is true for most instructors. I say that because even experienced teachers, to quote Jude, are continually “cooking the curriculum”. That is to say they continue to sharpen their presentation skills to clarify material, cut the fat off of a section to focus the content, add new in-class exercises or games to provide additional student practice, throw out parts that don't work, rewrite whole sections, and update handouts, slides, or other audio-visual material to match. Not only does this happen in-between courses generally, but also in the weeks leading up to the class as students starts signing up and returning questionnaires or intro packets. For both my PDC and teacher training I completed a survey before the first day detailing my personal exposure and education with permaculture. In the case of my teacher training, each student underwent an interview with Jude and Andrew in the first few hours on-site to introduce ourselves, which influenced the material presented. Further to this question of prep time is the devotion of time to students during the course itself. Both sets of my permaculture instructors made themselves available more than any teacher or professor I'd experienced previously. Ben and Dillon, during my PDC, answered question via email or through phone calls, as well as leading additional discussions during rest and lunch breaks. Jude, Andrew, and Rico, during the teacher training, were on from the moment they joined us for breakfast until the very end of the day as the last folks wandered off to bed. Though we talked and socialized, they each easily spent 12 hours or more a day in that teacher mode, insuring we all understood the material. With this broad perspective of what's behind the curtain for teaching a PDC, I think the cost is reasonable for what you get in return. Though I was hesitant when this podcast first began to recommend everyone take a PDC, especially with the low cost and availability of permaculture books, as well as the plethora of videos on the web and other resources, these days I feel that if you are able, it is worth taking a PDC and I implore anyone who is interested to do so. The information and hands-on practice of design alone is worth it, but the experience and networking makes it even more valuable. The intense cooperation that occurs during a PDC leads to long term connections. Trust me, I'm not always a very social person but walked away with some good friends I am still in touch with 2 years later. Does this help make sense of the cost of PDC? Leave a comment. You can also contact me directly: E-mail: The Permaculture Podcast

Our conversation was conducted over one of the few pieces of technology at the site, a landline telephone located in a space that is separated from the rest of the living area. Ethan, his wife, and the others who share the homestead with them operate the on a gift economy. The short and quick way to explain this is that they give gifts freely and have others give gifts in return, though not necessarily on a one to one or quid pro quo basis, which we clarify more fully in the interview. Though it initially sounded impossible to me, they are able to do this and support 9 full time adults and 2 children on the site, while still receiving over 1500 guests through their space for tours and classes. I wanted to call this episode Radical Simplicity, but changed it to Radical Possibilities because the powerful message that came through from the conversation was the power we have to create change when we open ourselves to the numerous of opportunites available and of human beings ability to creativily solve problems, especially when guided in a meaningful way. Overall this interview challenged many of my previous notions about the personal requirements to transform the world. Many of the examples I encountered previously dealt with people who spent years saving, paying off debt, and then leaving the western lifestyle of working to live, though they retained a certain level of wealth and financial independence. Ethan made his changes utilizing non-financial capital, relying on friends, neighbors, and other contacts to do good work. He and the community he lives in made, and continue to make, choices that allow them to live freely on very little of money, but with lives full of abundance. Ethan and his community are an experiment and this lifestyle may not work for everyone. Please do not compare your life and choices to his or anyone else. Take the steps necessary to live your better life by your own making. David Holmgren's 12 Principles of Permaculture 1. Observe and Interact. 2. Catch and Store Energy. 3. Obtain a Yield. 4. Apply Self Regulation and Accept Feedback. 5. Use and Value Renewable Resources and Services 6. Produce No Waste 7. Design from Patterns to Details 8. Integrate Rather than Segregate 9. Use Small and Slow Solutions 10. Use and Value Diversity 11. Use Edges and Value the Marginal 12. Creatively Use and Respond to Change. Ethan's Contact Information The Possibility Alliance 85 Edgecomb Road Belfast, ME 04915 207-338-5719 Resources Aprovecho Charles Eisenstein Sun Oven Contact the Show Email: The Permaculture Podcast Voicemail:

Andrew is a permaculture teacher who, along with his partner Adriana, runs the Permaculture Center for Bioregional Living, a permaculture training and education site in and around New York City. Our conversation, about re-visioning permaculture, examines taking the core ideas of permaculture as a design method and looking for leverage points to scale those ideas up to beyond the homestead and into city and region sized projects that interconnect people, communities, and the world at large into functioning sustainable systems. Best of all, this can be accomplished in ways that generate jobs and meaningful income, while also rehabilitating degraded land, and does so without needing to look for a sudden decline to make implementing broadly happen. We talk about solutions that fit the mainstream, now. In existing society in a way that is approachable to many. Andrew's Videos: Unique Vision on Permaculture Vision for a New Economy Resources: The Center for Bioregional Living The Center for Bioregional Living Facebook Page EPA Compost Report (Full - PDF) EPA Compost Report (2-Page Handout - PDF) U.S. Bioregion Map Brownfield and Superfund Maps People Amory Lovins Dwight D. Eisenhower's Military-Industrial Complex Speech John Todd Paul Hawken Terry Tamminen Lives Per Gallon Organizations Brooklyn Permaculture Meetup Gesundheit Institute Oasis NYC Northeast Organic Farming Association The Trust for Public Land - New York Other Biogas (Wiki) Living Machines (Wiki) Contact The Show: Email: The Permaculture Podcast Voicemail:

My wife and I spent the weekend talking about gray water systems and gray water reuse when the question came up, "Is that even legal?" So today I made a series of phone calls to find out.

I regret to report: No. In Pennsylvania they are not.

Now, I can't point to a specific piece of legislation outlawing gray water systems. No directly worded document like that exists. However, the source of this information is Martin Ferry, the Permits Chief and an environmental engineer for the the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection. During the conversation he made it very clear that Pennsylvania does not distinguish between gray and black water. Both are sewage and must be processed to state standards.

PA DEP views gray water as a health hazard and no longer issues permits for residential systems involving any kind of gray water reuse. Mr. Ferry referenced DEP studies and examples of constructed wetlands for grey water reuse that did not perform as required, which ended permitting.

Another barrier to a better designed world, but now the barrier is identified, gray water reuse advocates can work within their community and with legislators to get this changed.