Find out more about Geoff's work and pick up an e-book copy of his novel at permacultureutopia.com.

As I said in the beginning, the title for this episode is based on a quote from Bill Mollison. The text of that is:

When we design, we are always building for future floods, future fires, future droughts, and planting a tree a few inches tall that will be future forest giants, throw future shadows. Future populations will need future soils and forest resources, shelter, security. So somebody needs to range ahead in time, scout out the next century. We are not daydreaming. We are time scouts.

Each of us can contribute to this act of scouting the future by taking those thoughts we have of what could be, of what might be, or what we can imagine, and putting them down somewhere where they can be shared. Though Geoff and I spoke about the idea today in a novel, any form of art whether painting or play, can share what is possible.

So, I’m wondering, do you have any examples of permaculture art? I’m interested in hearing about long-form literature, short stories, paintings, photographs, any medium that might inspire the imagination. If you have something like this floating about in your own collection, please send me an email with the subject, “Permaculture Art.”

As Geoff mentioned during the interview, I’ve been exploring the idea of The Permaculture Pit, and how each of us can move through the period of inspired uncertainty that follows a permaculture design course. If you find yourself in this place and are looking for the resources, opportunities, and ideas that can help you take your next steps, I’m here to help.

Schedule a Meandering

If you’re working on a permaculture design, homestead, or other work and would like me to bring my decade of experience and training to your project, you can schedule a 30 or 60-minute consultation for us to review what you're working on.

Schedule a Consultation

Finally, if you would be interested in a workshop on Storytelling for Design, please get in touch and I’ll put you on the mailing list for the upcoming class. The Permaculture Podcast

Until the next time, tell the stories that share your vision of the future, while taking care of Earth, your self, and each other.

Related Interview
Managing Complexity

Resources
High Park - Black Oak Savannah
Douglas Cardinal - Canadian Architect
Thomas More - Utopia (Wikipedia)
Utopia (Full Text - Project Gutenberg)
William Morris - News from Nowhere (Wikipedia)
News from Nowhere (Project Gutenberg)
Charles Fourier (Wikipedia)
Christopher Alexander - The Battle for the Life and Beauty of the Earth (Oxford University Press)

To celebrate a decade of the show, the following interview is a personal one for me. In 2015, I interviewed Taj Scicluna, The Perma Pixie, and the two conversations we released were ones that transformed my personal perspective of permaculture. As Dave Jacke, Larry Santoyo, and Mark Lakeman moved my thoughts from permaculture as a land-based practice to a larger, holistic system applicable to most human needs for design, Taj’s thoughts on a fourth ethic, of transition, gave me an understanding of the precarious place we find ourselves in as we create the designs that lead to a more bountiful world for all life on Earth. Given all the issues we face from landscape degradation to economic programs that require our participation in systems we don’t agree with to politics and policies we have little individual control over, there is room to be gentle with ourselves and others as we find a way to navigate our own path through these dynamically changing times.  

You can find Taj's work at thepermapixie.com, which includes links to her Patreon and her presence around the web.

Become an ongoing member of the podcast Patreon community

This interview, this season, and the fact that this marks 10 years since I graduated from my permaculture design course, and started the show, leaves me in a reflective place. I think about what Taj said about passion, and all the things I love about hosting this show and sharing all of these personal stories with you.

With a decade and hundreds of episodes behind us, I’ll continue this work for as long as I can knowing that it will ebb, flow, and change over time. Starting next Spring, that includes expanding to visual storytelling with filmed interviews and site tours. Though I’ll keep producing the long-form interviews that became what this show was known for, I’m looking to partner with other people who have interviews they want to record and share.

I’d also like to teach you what I do so that more people get involved in recording their own interviews and sharing them with the world. These conversations reflect a form of community storytelling that connects us to other people around the world and, I think, make the world a smaller, more closely connected place as we create virtual villages of like-minded people.

So if you're interested in becoming a contributor to The Permaculture Podcast, have a question you’d like answered in an upcoming episode, someone to suggest for an interview, or to become a student of podcast storytelling, send me an email: The Permaculture Podcast

As this 10th anniversary episode draws to a close, whether this is your first time listening or you’ve been with me from day one, Thank You for being a part of the journey so far and for walking alongside me as we see what the future has to offer. 

Until the next time, spend each day exploring your passion and sharing your unique story, while taking care of Earth, yourself, and each other.

Resources
Taj Scicluna - The Perma Pixie

Gregory Bateson - Steps to an Ecology of Mind (Wiki)
Tyson Yunkaporta - Sand Talk: How Indigenous Thinking Can Save the World
Gavin de Becker - The Gift of Fear

For those of us within the anglosphere, we have a Nation that encompasses our state or province, and from there the city or town that defines our address. Those determine our polities within our biosphere. Many of us are fortunate enough to decide where we will live and how we will relate to these places by choosing earth, human, or bio-centric lenses to view the world. 

As a result of colonial disruption, however—whether the conquest of Latin and South America by the Portuguese and Spanish, by the American drive West, by Dutch colonization throughout sub-Saharan Africa, or by British expansion into India and Australia—many native, First Nation, and Aboriginal peoples lost access to the traditional territories where their language developed and their ceremonies and cultures connected them to land.

To help understand how this affects the people whose land many of us now inhabit and to continue the conversation about how we as Permaculture practitioners can decolonize our actions and be better allies when asked, I’m joined today by Michele Van Every and Steve Henhawk, members of the Gayogohono tribe. Together they share their work to repatriate the traditional tribal lands in upstate New York, around the Seneca Falls region, and revitalize their community by continuing to teach their customs and culture to future generations through the Gayogohono language and community gardening in order to return the native people and plants back to the land.

As we mention in the interview, they’re running a Gofund Me to continue their efforts in the face of recent setbacks. As this episode comes out, that campaign ends in a few days, but you can find that at:

https://charity.gofundme.com/o/en/campaign/cominghome

If the Gofund Me is closed by the time you read this, you can also mail a tax-deductible donation to Neto Hatinakwe Onkwehowe, Inc. a  Goyogo̱hó:nǫʼ-led 501(c)3 that supports Native arts and culture. Mail a donation with the memo "Coming Home" to:

Cultural Revitalization Fund
Neto Hatinakwe Onkwehowe (U.S.)
41 Shoreham Parkway
Buffalo, NY 14216

For me, the ethics of permaculture encompass the whole earth, including the people and their connections to the land. Whether we find our way through a cultural identity, religious traditions, or an inherent love of life, if our practices are to create permanent culture through permanent agriculture, we need to know and acknowledge those who came before us and the efforts of their still-living descendants. As Michelle and Steve shared these are not peoples lost to history, but often displaced rich and vibrant cultures alive all around us. All we need to do is look, stop, and listen. If they are open to inviting us in, we can then ask how we can be an ally to their cause, and continue our work to care for all people.

But, those are just my thoughts at the moment. What are yours? Leave a comment below.

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The Summer to Fall Fundraiser continues for a few more weeks, so if you would like to see me add video tours of permaculture sites and projects, as well as in-person interviews to the offerings from the podcast in the future, please donate today. 

As a thank you to anyone who donates $50 or more, I’ll send you a USB drive with every episode from the first 10 years of the podcast, from my first tentative steps right after completing my permaculture design course in 2010, through to the 10th-anniversary episode, a conversation with Taj Scicluna, the Perma Pixie, out on October 10th of this year.

This is also a great way to get every episode of the show and explore the breadth of all Permaculture has to offer, as this Fall, in order to better manage the server where everything is stored, I’m going to start removing the first few years of the podcast from the website. For most folks who download the show through iTunes or Stitcher or wherever you find the podcast, you probably haven’t seen these in your feed for a long time, but they have been available for direct download through the individual show notes pages at thepermaculturepodcast.com.

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Until the next time, consider the land where you live and the traditions that arose there, while taking care of Earth, your self, and each other.

That’s where books like Building a Better World in Your Back Yard, co-authored by my guest Shawn Klassen-Koop, fill a gap between those spaces. He and Paul Wheaton worked together to provide a book that gives inspiration and action for all of us. Through their insightful analysis and long-running knowledge of permaculture, they share ways we can achieve more than the latest green trends.

During the conversation today, Shawn shares some of those ideas and how to transform our lives wherever we live. He also talks about his experience of co-authoring a book, and how you can get that book inside yourself out onto the page and into the world.

Find out more about Shawn, his book, and the accompanying podcast series at buildingabetterworldbook.com/scott.

Join The Permaculture Podcast Patreon Community

As we shared in the middle of the interview, we have several copies of his book to give away. If you’d like to enter this giveaway sending me an email and include “Building a Better World” in the subject line.

Stepping away from this interview and looking through the book, I think this is a great introduction to the concepts of permaculture and turning our energy into steps we can take each day to achieve our goals. In doing so, we can practice David Holmgren’s first principle of permaculture, Observe and Interact, every day by deeply considering our place and space, and making small, meaningful consistent changes.

It’s also a good book to introduce others to the ideas of permaculture, and it’s going on my gift list for friends and family wondering what this permaculture thing is all about. 

But, those are just my thoughts. After hearing this conversation with Shawn, and especially if you’ve read the book already, what do you think? How will you use what you’ve learned to change your permaculture practices and design? Let me know.

Leave a comment below.

Until the next day, build a better world in your own backyard while taking care of Earth, your self, and each other.

I could effectively design for a residence and work as a gardener and, with a bit of practice and planning, as a teacher. What I didn't know how to do was start a design company that could meet client needs efficiently. The scope of permaculture provided a huge number of tools, but I didn't know how to select the ones to create an efficient toolbox.

I've learned a lot since then, but find that how to work as a professional designer remains something missing from broader permaculture education. Though I see permaculture as a bigger umbrella than just landscape design and teaching permaculture design courses, these are areas where people have had and can continue to find, successful livelihoods. As that is the case, I want to share more about professional practitioners so you can take up the mantle of a designer and hang out your own sign offering design services, if you would like.

As my main work is as an educator and not a landscape designer, to further this conversation I wanted to call on someone with experience to share their process. So, my guest today is Owen Wormser, a landscape designer from Massachusetts who specialized in low-maintenance landscape designs with an understanding of the unique role and needs of permaculture practitioners.

Using the framework of his design business, Abound Design, as a model, he shares how he goes from finding clients, including his early days getting started, through to his design process, and how he lays out plants to finalize the design with his client. During our conversation he includes his thoughts on what work to accept; how as a professional we spend more time designing than just our time in the studio; and ways to consider setting our prices. We end with his thoughts on the DIY spirit of permaculture and how that translates to our work as professional designers.

Find out more about Owen and his design firm at abounddesign.com.

If you'd like to learn more about Owen's background and his recent book, Lawns into Meadows, we recorded an interview about this recently, which you can listen to here:

Turning Lawns Into Meadows

You can learn more about his book and pick up a copy at stonepierpress.org.

If you choose to become a professional designer, over time you'll develop your own process for speaking with customers, how you create your designs and the ways to go from paper to plants in the ground. If you're already a designer, you probably have many of these established already. Wherever you find yourself, I hope this conversation with Owen provided a fresh perspective and tools you can use every day in your practice, whether that's taking a more education-focused approach to your customer interactions, or finding ways to create functional designs more efficiently.

But, what Owen shared here is only the beginning. If you are interested in starting your own design company, what additional questions do you have? If you are already a professional designer, what would you add to what we discussed in this interview? Let me know.

Leave a comment in the show notes or send me an email: The Permaculture Podcast

Schedule a Consultation

I'm here to help you with your permaculture journey, whether that's deciding on your next steps, as a professional to bounce ideas off of for your next project, or to refine your permaculture design. You can schedule a one-on-one consultation, or casual conversation, at calendly.com/permaculture.

In our conversation, which begins with his biography, he shares his inspiration from the work of John Kempf and Dan Kittredge, along with the JADAM Korean farming method, to create garden amendments at home from hyper-local sources: eggshells and bones from his kitchen, scraps, and remnants from the garden, and leaf mold from the forest floor. Using ferments, tinctures, and extracts, he creates the foliar sprays, fertilizers, and soil drenches to grow disease and pest-resistant plants, and nutrient-dense food, without the need for commercial chemical fertilizers, pesticides, or fungicides.

Rich with examples from his own garden, Nigel’s approach favors biology over technology to reduce the cost of gardening, improve his local soil, and the quality of his fruits and vegetables.

You can find more about Nigel, his book, and work with The Institute of Sustainable Nutrition at tiosn.com.

Download Nigel's Recipe for Vinegar Extractions (With Permission from Chelsea Green Publishing)

Gardening can be incredibly wasteful from all the packaging and plastic, to harmful to our environment through the overuse of chemicals, from nitrogen-heavy fertilizers that runoff into our waterways, to the pesticides and herbicides that, even when narrow spectrum, kill a wide variety of soil life. In our waterways, many of these chemicals that seem to improve our gardens and growth of food, kill fish, and amphibians. I like Nigel’s DIY approach to sustainable fertilization, fertigation, and improvement of life in the soil because it dispenses with those harms while using and reusing items we can find in our local environment. Often from our pantry, garden, or own backyard, while aligning with so many of the principles of permaculture.

We can observe the rise of a disease or pest issue and interact with a creative response via the homemade remedy. We catch and store energy by creating tinctures, extracts, and ferments while they are available and create a form we can keep refrigerated or on a shelf. We obtain a yield by increasing the health, vitality, and nutrition of our plants. Though not written explicitly as a permaculture book, Nigel provides a holistic approach to Zone 1 and Zone 2 plant management.

But, those are just my thoughts. After listening to this interview with Nigel Palmer, what are yours?

Leave a comment in the show notes, or email me: The Permaculture Podcast.

Until the next time, feed yourself, your soil, and your garden from local sources, while taking care of Earth, yourself, and each other.

Related Interviews
Nutrient Dense Foods | Dan Kittredge
Improving Broadscale Agriculture | John Kempf

Resources
The Regenerative Grower’s Guide to Garden Amendments
The Institute of Sustainable Nutrition
Korean Natural Farming Resources
JADAM Organic Farming: The Way to Ultra-low-cost Agriculture by Youngsang Cho (Amazon)
JADAM Organic Farming

I’ve been intrigued by biodynamic agriculture as a farming practice since first hearing about the growth of biodynamic wineries in Sonoma Valley, California. How did Rudolf Steiner’s philosophy impact the way we managed the land? How does Biodynamic Agriculture differ from permaculture or organic ag? And, what was the deal with the preparations, like stuffing a cow horn full of manure and burying it in a field?

Thankfully, I knew of Allen Clements through our local permaculture community and saw that he’d posted some info about biodynamic agriculture to his Instagram feed. Reading some of his blog entries, he was just getting started with all of this, so seemed like the perfect person for me to sit down with, in person, to explore these ideas. Together, we could capture his perspective as a relatively new practitioner, and my bewilderment as someone with only a passing familiarity with the name, let alone the practices. 

You can find Allen’s at his blog ForestRancher.wordpress.com, on Instagram @forestranchregenerative, and his YouTube channel, Forest Ranch Regenerative. On his channel, you’ll also find an interview he recorded with me about The Permaculture Podcast.

As you can hear in this interview, I am skeptical of some aspects of biodynamic agriculture, but also convinced that there is something to these practices that leads to improved landscapes and healthy plants. Is it in planting and harvesting according to the calendar, mindful of the root, fruit, leaf, and flower days? Do the preparations offer the nutritional density missing in conventional, and even organic agriculture? Or do the changes come from the attention and connection to the land found by engaging with these practices?

I don’t know yet but would like to learn more about the origins, efficacy, and deeper practices. Not just the preparations, but also how the calendar is calculated. Why farmers chose to convert to biodynamic agriculture (Is to restore degraded land? As a branding opportunity? To increase returns?) and also to hear how Biodynamic Agriculture has grown from the ideas set out by the founder, Rudolph Steiner, a century ago.

If you’d like me to air this exploration on the show and join me through this period of discovery, let me know and I’ll produce more episodes on Biodynamic Agriculture. Also, do you currently practice biodynamic agriculture? What are your thoughts? What would you like to learn more about? Or do you see this as a system incompatible with permaculture?

Let me know.

Leave a comment in the show notes, send me an email: The Permaculture Podcast.

From here, the next interview is a conversation with Nigel Palmer, to discuss his work creating hyper-local soil amendments from mineral and biological ferments and extracts.

Until the next time, spend each day considering your preparations while taking care of Earth, your self, and each other.

As my focus over the years has been on the breadth of what it means to practice permaculture, and not the specifics of design, I shared with Dan my thoughts on how to develop an interview style and choosing how much to prepare for those conversations ahead of time. How to find your narrative voice and make decisions early on that establish your on-air presentation.

After a rather enjoyable chat that ended as I could stay awake no longer and he needed to head to his evening meal, I’ve continued to follow Dan’s show over the years and find my own inspiration in him taking on the vital subject of design. With this admiration, I jumped at the opportunity when he recently reached out to ask if I’d want to share an interview he’d recorded with the founder of Holistic Management.

Needing little introduction, the Zimbabwean ecologist Allan Savory has spent decades developing and refining how we can manage complexity in the environment, on our farms, and in our lives. In a forward-thinking approach that walks us backward from the vision of how we want our world, land, or life to be, we can then look well beyond the moment and see where we want to go and how to get there

This is, of course, a simplified explanation of a fascinating and deep system for managing a wide range of issues, but which has roots in fighting desertification and reversing climate change.

You can find more about Allan and his work at Savory.global

Dan’s website and podcast are at makingpermaculturestronger.net.

You can read Dan's original show notes at: https://makingpermaculturestronger.net/permaculture-holistic-management/

Leaving this interview what Allan said about our ability to manage complexity stuck in my mind, and so I immediately picked up a copy of the audiobook of Holistic Management, Third Edition, A Commonsense Revolution to Restore Our Environment. What stood out both in the book and from this conversation is how Allan turns the language of complexity around so that we do not have to name what we face, but rather focus on the desired outcomes of our holistic context while allowing us to quickly grasp what we need to do to achieve that end. Along the way we have checks to see whether or not what we’re doing is correct for reaching that long-term holistic context.

Why this stood out to me was that in my graduate program years ago, we used to break complex situations down into two main categories: issues and problems. Issues were the overarching conditions leading to detrimental effects which cannot be directly addressed through a simple on-the-ground action or small policy change. Problems were individual pieces we could create a plan or policy around and thus change. The issues we found drove what problems we could solve, thus ameliorating the impacts of the larger issues. Work on enough problems, the theory went, and eventually, you’d solve the issue.

As I understand what Allan’s doing, Holistic Management takes all of that, wraps it up in one process, and allows us to continuously work on both the issues and problems in parallel. Though I know there’s much more to the method than my words here express, there exists a tangible power behind Holistic Management to achieve a beautiful, bountiful world where we’ve afforested the deserts and reversed climate change.

But, those are just my thoughts at the moment. What are yours?

Leave a comment in the show notes, or send me an email: The Permaculture Podcast

A few updates and announcements:

One of those, as we approach the 10th anniversary of the podcast, is the annual Summer to Fall fundraiser.

My goal for this fundraiser is two-fold. The first is to upgrade the computer where I edit the show. The second is to invest in some video equipment to record video interviews and site tours once the world recovers from COVID.

To go along with the fundraiser, for anyone donating $50 or more (please include postage, international listeners), if you include your address in the notes for your donation, I’ll send you a USB drive with every currently available interview, monologue, and discussion from the first decade of The Permaculture Podcast. That includes the first show from 2010 all the way up to the 10th-anniversary episode out on October 10th of this year.

Also, I’m here to help you find the resources necessary to bring your vision of permaculture into the world. You can now schedule a one-on-one consultation with me, or a more casual, meandering conversation if you prefer, at calendly.com/permaculture.

Finally, there are more voices in the world doing amazing work than I could ever have the possibility to record an interview with, so if you’ve ever thought, “I’d love to hear an interview with a member of my community on The Permaculture Podcast,” now’s the opportunity. I’d like to teach you how to record a conversation and send it to me to share on the show. You don’t need to edit or produce the interview, I’ll take care of all that.

I’m also particularly interested in stories recorded by women and young people and from Black, Indigenous, and People of Color communities.

If you’re interested, let me know. Send an email to: The Permaculture Podcast with the subject, “My Community” and pitch me the story you’d like to share.

Until the next time, spend each day managing complexity, while taking care of Earth, your self, and each other.

Along the way, John shares the history of how he came to and developed these methods, as well as how existing food policies and intellectual property systems hamper farmers' ability to steward the land and increase the health and resilience of our communities. By holistically meeting the needs of farmers and focusing on the results, rather than the methods, John leads farmers down the path of regenerative agriculture and a more abundant future.

Find out more about John, his podcast, and his new book, Quality Agriculture, at JohnKempf.com.

Become a sustaining supporter at Patreon

John's results represent what permaculture practitioners can achieve on a broad-scale by seeing to farmers' needs while speaking the language of permaculture. John is doing for fruit and vegetable agriculture what folks like Allan Savory are achieving raising animals.

Permaculture folks have a fantastic number of tools in our toolkit. John extends those by providing a model for furthering our practices, whether we are interested in working directly with farmers and broad-scale agriculture or policy and politics. We can use the research and science he's found to argue and advocate for practices and procedures that change agriculture as we know it. We can push organic and other operations further and further away from chemical use and closer to what we've known for more than 40 years: working with nature leads to bountiful results.

But, those are just my thoughts at the moment. What are yours? 

Leave a comment below in the show notes or by sending me an email: The Permaculture Podcast

Until the next time, spend each day caring for the soil and growing healthy plants while taking care of Earth, your self, and each other.

Resources
John Kempf
Regenerative Agriculture PodcastDisease Resistance and Regenerating Soil with Michael McNeill
Kiss The Ground
Farmer’s Footprint

Laura joins me as a sort of continuation of the conversation with Erin Axelrod, but focusing on the individual rather than the organization. During our time together Laura shares how we can make a difference by considering where our money sleeps. The ways to guide our finances towards banking and investment so our surplus provides benefits for our local communities. How non-financial capital can create an abundance. Throughout it all, we also remember, that the world we live in, and our lives right now, are in a period of transition so we can be gentle on ourselves and our decisions.

Find out more about Laura and her work at richandresilientliving.com.

Join The Permaculture Podcast Patreon Community
Schedule a Call with Scott

Stepping away from this interview—though I’d love to live in a world where abundance is the rule and there isn’t a need to invest to prepare for the later stages in life or to ask for investment to sustain our projects—as we opened the conversation, I accept we’re in a period of transition to the world we want to live in. As permaculture practitioners creating abundance for ourselves, in this time we can also help others create similar opportunities in their lives by using every form of capital at our disposal and sharing our surplus with others.

But, that’s just my thought. What are yours?

Leave a comment below or send me an email: The Permaculture Podcast

Until the next time, spend each day investing in your life and your communities while taking care of Earth, your self, and each other.

Recommended Articles from Laura
Welcome to Your Guide to a Rich & Resilient Life
How I’m Investing to Save the Planet
Looking Beyond Financial Capital on the Path to Financial Independence
Impact Banking: Do Good With Your Stimulus Check Even If You Can’t Afford to Donate

Related Interviews
Slow Money | Nancy Thellman
Limits, Our Future, and Slow Money | Woody Tasch
The Next Economy | Erin Axelrod

Resources
Rich and Resilient Living

Self Directed Retirement Account
Socially Responsible Mutual Funds
Environmental, Social, and Governance Criteria
Slow Money
Slow Food
Solo 401(k) (One-Participant 401(k) Plans)
Self-Invested Personal Pension (SIPP)
OneUnited Bank
Native American Bank
Global Alliance for Banking on Values

Koreen Brennan - Grow Permaculture
Michael Shuman - Put Your Money Where Your Life Is

American Homeowner Preservation
Stockwood Community Benefit Society
ORICoop (Organic Investment Cooperative - Australia)
Regenerative Enterprise: Optimizing for Multi-capital abundance
The Next Egg

Crowdfunding
Kiva
We Funder
We The Trees