Eric Toensmeier - Writing the Carbon Farming Toolkit

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My guest for this episode is Eric Toensmeier, author of numerous books and articles on permaculture, including the much lauded Edible Forest Gardens with Dave Jacke.

He joins us to talk about his next book, which he is seeking to support with a crowd-funding campaign via Kickstarter. That book Eric is working on, and needs your help with, examines perennial solutions to stabilizing and reducing the impacts of climate change, and to help bolster a reduction of fossil fuels, including an eventual transition to a petro-chemical free future.

Our conversation, though a bit nerdy at times, expands the thinking on potential yields in a system, and how we can creatively respond to change. I find his decision to use crowd-funding as a model fascinating because of how it connects authors and producers with their audience, allowing them to combine efforts to create works of value in a way equitable to everyone involved. Here is the idea of collaboration, not competition, being used in a horizontal way.

His kickstarter campaign runs until April 30th. At this point he's not quite halfway to his goal, but making steady climbs, including my own donation to his cause. He and I got a little geeky on the industrial perennial possibilities, but I keep turning over all those yields, many of which I didn't know about. Milkweed (Asclepias L.) is of particular interest because it grows readily here in central Pennsylvania and is the host species for the monarch butterfly (Danaus plexippu). What other creative or novel solutions exist we haven't begun to consider yet? What ways have you thought of to make a difference with permaculture that's new to you?

I'd love to hear from you. Please leave a comment below.

The two articles that form the genesis of Eric's book can be found here:
Perennial Staple Crops of the World
Stabilizing the Climate with Permanent Agriculture

Resources:
Eric Toensmeier
Perennial Solutions
Kickstarter Campaign for Writing the Carbon Farming Toolkit.

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Steve Gabriel - Agroforestry

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My guest today is Steve Gabriel, a permaculture instructor with the Finger Lakes Permaculture Institute, and an extension office aide at Cornell University, who researches Agroforestry and Mushroom cultivation with Dr. Ken Mudge.

Our conversation, broadly, covers Agroforestry, what it is, the various techniques, and what we can learn from these practices as permaculturists. Mushroom cultivation and forest gardens are woven throughout. Two terms of particular interest are Analog Design and Upcycling, which I leave Steve to explain. His experience with academic research blended with permaculture, and his articulate explanation of the material at hand, even when I throw some unplanned curveballs in the process, make this a nice extension to several of the past interviews, including Ethan Hughes and Dr. Bern Sweeney.

After you listen to Steve, I recommend going back through the archives, if you haven't heard them, and listen to those other guests or any others that catch your eye (or, should that be ear?). The pieces start to fall into place about how all the conversations, past, present, and yet to come, about both visible and invisible structures are connected within the web of Permaculture. Help Steve, and Dr. Mudge, with their project to document forest farms! If you are a forest farmer: Take the Survey. If you're interested in Forest Farms: Support the Book (Indie Go Go).

Resources:
Steve Gabriel
Dr. Ken Mudge
Farming the Woods
Indie Go Go Campaign to Support Farming The Woods
Finger Lakes Permaculture Institute
North-East Mushroom Growers Network (Cornell)
The Redesigned Forest by Chris Maser
U.S. Forest Service Climage Change Atlas

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Josh Robinson - San Diego Sustainable Living Institute

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My guest for this episode is Josh Robinson, a permaculture practitioner from San Diego, who is part of the team that operate the San Diego Sustainable Living Institute.

Their organization is devoted to doing on the ground education and to serve as a hub to connect people with information and ideas in the San Diego area. When Josh came to my attention, I was fascinated by the amount of classes and workshops being offered by the San Diego Sustainable Living Institute, and then in scheduling the show, also by the passion he has for teaching and sharing permaculture. With our time together, the conversation covers his own long passage to permaculture, the work of the institute, and dry land permaculture techniques. Along the way his love of all these things, and his experience, come through.
Resources:
People:
Josh Robinson
Brad Lancaster
Chris Anderson
Karen Taylor
Lisa Rayner
Matt Berry
Penny Livingston-Stark

Organizations:
San Diego Sustainable Living Institute
Lama Foundation
Prescott College

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Adam Brock - Invisible Structures

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Adam Brock of The GrowHaus returns to continue the thread of Invisible Structures that began in the last episode with Bill Sommers.

There we talked about Community Developed Finance, here Adam and I speak more broadly about Invisible Structures and his emerging Invisible Structures Pattern Language. This invisible structure theme began when I first spoke with Adam and I've wanted to follow up on it for some time. What we are capable of as individuals is multiplied when we come together. Many hands make light work whether designing a landscape, working out the details of an alternative economic system, or building community. In Permaculture, there's plenty of work on backyard permaculture, and as Rafter Sass Ferguson's study shows the work on broad scale is growing. To take these ideas further, we now need to move from the physical and start on the small scale invisible structures: our friends and neighbors. And then our community.

You want to review his online presentation here: Adam Brock's Invisible Structure Pattern Language Take your time to look it over. If you have thoughts on what to the pattern language, leave a comment and help Adam grow this body of knowledge he's working on.

I think these pattern languages, in the long term, serve as one of the best ways to take the vast body of information we have available as permaculture practitioners, and break them down into something we can carry with us. Though the descriptors that go with each piece of the language may take several paragraphs, or pages, to explain in detail, the title of the pattern is short. You can take all titles from the patterns in Peter Bane's A Permaculture Handbook, which is excellent by the way, and write them down on the front and back of a single sheet of paper. The same can be said for the edible forest garden pattern language in Edible Forest Gardens by Dave Jacke and Eric Toensmeier. Take those two, add in Alexander's plus Mr. Brock's, and you have a very powerful reference, that extends the ethics and principles of permaculture. This toolkit allows us to facilitate designing larger, more varied systems, all in a format that fits in a pocket.

Inspirations for Adam's Pattern Language:
A Pattern Language by Christopher Alexander, Sarah Ishikawa, and Murray Silverstein.
Debt the First 5,000 Years by David Graeber
Edible Forest Gardens by Dave Jacke and Eric Toensmeier
The Empowerment Manual by Starhawk
People and Permaculture by Looby MacNamara
The Permaculture Handbook by Peter Bane
Sacred Economics by Charles Eisenstein

Resources:
The GrowHaus
Tyranny of Structurelessness by Jo Freeman

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Scott Mann - My Permaculture Journey

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Your Host

I didn't have permaculture parents. Though my father could, and still can, build many many things out of wood, he never conserved materials, except to save money, or worried about electricity. If the table saw kept running while fetching another piece of lumber, and taking the time to mark it before making the cut, so be it. My mother, an accomplished cook, was as likely to tear open a box to put dinner on the table as cook from scratch. Organic had no meaning either, and the closest notion to a farmer's market consisted of one roadside, proclaiming “Sweet Corn, $2/dozen” for a few weeks every year. The only thing we grew were strawberries and spring onions, of which I'd eat both fresh from the garden, dirt still on them.

Thinking back to childhood memories, that wide rectangular patch seemed to stretch over a quarter of our urban lot, bigger than any one child could possibly eat all of, and I certainly tried. But seemed is the right word there, as the patch wasn't all that big. Maybe 100 square feet. As a child, I spent time in the outdoors, until books, video games, and ultimately computers, caught my interest as a teen. Those teenage years lead to college, where computers continued to play a major role, as I studied Computer Science. I still joke Comp. Sci. is only one part science. The other part is witchcraft, with a lot of prayer and hand waving hoping the results we get back are those we desire. While in those late teen years, an opportunity arose to intern at a U.S. Military facility. Still before the year 2000, the Y2K bug left a feeling of panic in the air. Great quantities of work waited to fix this problem. No one seemed to know just what would happen if this problem didn't get fixed. That fear pushed me, prodded me, and took up residence in my mind, so that I became someone involved in disaster preparedness and primitive skills. Should something happen and society did melt down, I'd be ready to step into the temperate hills of Appalachia and be OK. Thankfully, that fantasy of a young adult quickly left, to be filled with compassion for family and friends, and a desire for a sense of community. I wanted to see everyone make it through any disaster. There had to be a better way to make it through hard times than to go at it alone or build some secure, remote compound. Not long before Y2K, I found permaculture. The design portion of permaculture didn't catch my attention, as before my love of computer science, I wanted to study anthropology and sociology, rather here was a system for designing permanent agriculture, to support a permanent culture, and in turn civilization could continue, even in the face of a catastrophe. The piece I'd been looking for came into focus, and the hunt for a Permaculture Design Course was on. At the time, there were not many being offered and my connection to the community, being very very cursory, turned up few chances where time and money aligned to go. Once Y2K happened, or didn't as is more accurate, the fear of an unknown future and desire to take up permaculture faded with them. I used the technology boom of the late 90s and early 00s to launch a career and travel down a comfortable road in my 20s, but a sneaking suspicion that something wasn't quite right with the path continued. Permaculture kept cropping up in my reading and interest. I'd keep looking for a PDC from time to time, but continued to hit the challenge of having either the time or the money to go. Fast forward a decade. I'm married, in my early 30s, with children. Off and on for 13 years I've looked for a PDC. On a whim, I looked again, and found one. It's being taught about an hour a way. On weekends only. Over 7 months. Finally! A class I can take! Phone calls happen. I talk to one of the teachers, Dillon. The deadline isn't too far away. I talk to my wife. Back and forth. We straighten things out. I'm finally taking a PDC! The course went well. I meet a great group of people dedicated to building a better world with permaculture, each in their own way. We graduate, and I start this show, but then some rough time came. I've mentioned before that I encountered several failures to launch before getting to where I am today. That began in late 2010 and early 2011, as I wanted to start my own permaculture design business. Given the place that I'm at, with a family and children, I needed to make sure everything was above board and properly covered, legally. Here's where I found out, over several months, that to carry the proper insurance and hire a law firm, because of the non-standard nature of permaculture as so considered by the state of Pennsylvania, would be prohibitively expensive for someone starting out. Not too expensive, I don't think, for an already established business, but getting off the ground this was at the time and insurmountable hurdle. Shelving the idea of professional design in my current situation, I used the last of my seed money to go to Oregon and take a Teacher Training with Jude Hobbs, Andrew Millison, and Rico Zook. There I realized that technology is a part of who I am, and the podcast was reaching people. Jude went so far as to play a clip while we were eating dinner. She had listened to some shows. Returning from a great week in the green hills of Oregon, I took nearly a year off to focus on matters important to my family and figure out the next step. Honestly, returning to the show was a bit of a fluke, but as with so much of what happened on my road to here, the idea of working with this material never left me. One day while sitting down to review website stats for my wife's site, I decided to check the permaculture podcast and was surprised to see that more people subscribed to the now inactive show than when I first started. The interest was still there. The show came back online with my first new interview speaking to Dillon Cruz, and brought me back to permaculture full time. Well, as full time as my schedule allows. This same event reignited my desire to be a better educator, and improve my ability to communicate these ideas, by going on to graduate school, so that permaculture and sustainability have another credentialed voice, to aid those who work every day to make such great changed in the world. And so I can help anyone of you who are interested, have a chance to follow your permaculture path wherever it may lead, without having to walk this 15 year long, convoluted road I've been on. I don't know how much time I can save you, but I hope it's substantial. And, for those of you on this road with me already, realize how long it took me to get here, even with a path that started nearly half my life ago. From here, where do we go? Well, for me, I'll continue to work on those credentials and share information about permaculture with the world via the podcast, freely. My desire to keep the show and main website ad and commercial free remain. I depend on donation from listeners to keep things running and make investments in equipment, or to buy skype credits to call internationally. If you'd like to contribute, go to thepermaculturepodcast.com/support to find out how. Also, the show is expanding into an on-line PDC, and I'm putting together the resources to shoot video for release on YouTube. That's me. For you, there's a couple of places to start, depending on where you are and what you want to do. If you are practicing permaculture in your backyard, you don't need to take a PDC. There are great books and on-line videos on the subject to get you going, and plenty of evening, one day, and weekend seminars to get you more information. However, if you have the time and money to go to a PDC, I highly recommend it. The camaraderie and connections go a long way towards having people you can bounce ideas off of. In the meantime, always feel free to reach out to me and I'll do what I can to help you, to certain degrees. If you want to practice permaculture design professionally, before you go off to a PDC or start down that road, check into what, if any, legal requirements you have in your area, and what the road might be to meet those needs. You may find additional schooling is well served to do this, or that you don't want to design after all. Otherwise, and once you check that out, get yourself to a PDC! This course is your “gateway” to the world of permaculture. There are more options available now than ever, including several on-line, of which I'll be opening one up this summer. But that's not meant as a plug for my work alone. Plenty of talented people work every day to teach permaculture and you'll be well served by most. If in doubt, send me an email with a listing and I'll give you an idea of what to consider before making a decision. If you want to teach this material professionally, once you get a PDC, go to a Teacher Training. This is the next “gateway” on the path. You'll learn a lot about how to teach effectively in the informal environment, how to run workshops, and many of the other business development pieces you need to be effective. The transparency of my teacher training teachers helped to clear up many questions about permaculture education, and what's necessary to put yourself out in the world. However, once you have a PDC and Teacher Training under your belt, don't just jump in with both feet. Take your time, get some more experience, and observe other classes. You'll save yourself time and energy in the long run. From there, with your experiences, what you do with permaculture is your choice. Have a Masters in Business Administration and want to do green business consulting with a permaculture focus? Go for it. Have a science background and want to research the efficacy of permaculture techniques in field trials? Go for it? Want to use your communications background to help people express their local needs in a sustainable way? Go for it! Are you a great writer who wants to create the next revision of the Designers' Manual? Go for it! But only after contacting Tigari to find out what that process would be. There's room for many different paths under the permaculture umbrella. Whatever you choose to do, find your niche, where you fit in this big picture, and go for it. Depending on your situation, that may mean a slow climb down on the other side of the precipice, but for others you may be able to leap and build your wings on the way down.

Wherever you go and however you get there, I will be here as long as possible to help you on your journey. Leave a comment below.

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Permabyte: Permaculture and Disasters

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This episode is a listener question thanks to a good friend of mine, Tony, sending an email for me to check out a recent video by Toby Hemenway on Redesigning Civilization and a question. His question:

Say, for the sake of argument, that we lived in a fully functional Permacultural society (as to how large a society, let's consider the question in regards to a local, city, and national sized societies). How would a Permacultural society deal with an extensive drought and/or other longer-termed production destroying situations as opposed to an industrial/agricultural one?

Before I dig in, I'm going to say that this is a thought experiment at best, and a bit of a rambling one at that. Here is my mind as I'm pulling from various angles to look at various points. I could easily spend months working out more and more intricacies, putting in references to support and refute various pieces, but I'd rather provide a basic response than to fall down the rabbit hole of seeking perfection and never produce something. For the sake of time and brevity, this is what I have for now. Given the complexities of any arrangement of people, a clear-cut answer of what this final society would look like isn't straight forward. Every situation and site is unique, and thus would be every town, city, or nation that make permaculture the primary design system. However, I can speak to how the principles and other core ideas of permaculture potentially lead to a different society that can face this, or other, loss of production. To see how that happens, I'm going to walk through Holmgren's widely publicized 12 principles and be mindful of the three ethics. For those of you who haven't heard them in a while, or if this is your first introduction to permaculture, here are those ethics and principles. Ethics Care for the Earth Care for the People Set limits to consumption and reproduction, and return the surplus. Principles Observe and Interact. Catch and store energy. Obtain a yield. Apply self-regulation and accept feedback. Use and value renewable resources and services. Produce no waste. Design from patterns to details. Integrate rather than segregate. Use small and slow solutions. Use and value diversity. Use edges and value the marginal. Creatively use and respond to change. So, we have the premise of the question: A disaster occurs destroying long term production. Though it could be anything, I'll focus on Tony's suggested drought as an illustrating point. The principles, being principles and not techniques, apply in the same way to any other problem encountered, even if that's a wandering horde of zombies or keeping rebels out of your new planet destroying orbital base. The specific design elements and techniques come in to solve the problem at hand, such as a strong fence to keep out those zombies, if they're the slow shambling Romero types, or insuring you have good security in place and small enough exhaust ports so some lucky farmboy doesn't have the skills to hit that now half meter target. Though I don't know how you'd account for the wisdom of a ghostly Obi-Wan Kenobi encouraging him to use the force, but I digress. Now then, with the 12 principles as a guide for figuring out how this society would differ from the world we have today, let's go. Observe and interact. This principle gets us into the world examining the site and what happens there. Through the use of zone, sector, and vector analysis the internal, external, positive, and negative influences become clear, including accepting the unknowns. We know what disasters are most likely, can plan for the eventuality, and consider the worst case scenario. We then design solutions into the system expecting that one day the disaster will come. Knowing there is a drought guides how we respond to it. Catch and store energy. Another reminder to capture and use as much of what's coming through a particular system as possible in order to slow the progress of entropy. Living systems represent the best way to do that, through the plants and animals, people and their knowledge. Considering the impacts of a drought: long term drop in food production, we need to store food, our own energy for the future. When it comes to our plants, that means building nutrients in the soil and in turn water the soil. Knowledge is another form of energy storage, if you want to play loose with the idea of energy, but figure this more to be the wisdom of those around us and who came before us. Planning for drought, we can investigate techniques to help in that situation both common, such as mulching, but also more specifically like dry farming tomatoes. Again, with any emergency, the best time to gain those skills are before the problem arises, so we're constantly learning new things early and often. Obtain a yield. Whether the disaster occurs today or 10 years from now, preparing ahead of time and considering what yields we want to obtain allow us to still produce something useful from the system. It's possible to spend so much preparing for an eventuality that in the time until it occurs the systems costs us more than we gain. This shouldn't be a zero-sum game where we win or lose, but rather to be perpetually gaining a little bit more and ever improving. But don't take that as a commandment to seek ever increasing growth, as the only thing I've known of that can grow forever is cancer, and that'll kill you. Instead, we expand the yields we get from the system. Storing water in tanks is a great improvement if it benefits us now and in the future. Capturing rainwater to water plants may aid the recharging of the local aquifer because of the decreased need to use it, allowing that to be an additional resource when the drought comes. Storing food saves us should the drought mean there is less food, but spending money we one doesn't have to build those reserves could put you in more dire straights. The same goes for spending resources to put away food and then failing to use it. We've introduced unnecessary waste to the system. Apply self-regulation and accept feedback. Like a recession, by the time we realize a drought is upon us, we're already in trouble. This isn't something that happens suddenly and is gone, like a tornado or single storm, but is a long term disruption that may happen over a large area. As long term planners, after a few weeks with no rain, we being making decisions on how to handle the situation. The community begins coming together to figure out how to get the necessary work done. The nation begins directing any available volunteers where they can do the most good, while under the auspices of the local community leaders and citizens they serve. Use and value renewable resources and services. We use renewable resources and services because they're ones that can be managed easier, by individuals and communities. Though the usage could be extractive, say cutting down a tree, planting another one or allowing succession regenerates that loss so it is only temporary. In turn, this preserves the limited, scarce, and non-renewable resources so that should a problem arise, a small portion may be used to help solve the problem. For our drought conditions, this could be fuel for tanker trucks to deliver water onsite to those in need, or to move resources long distances should the local ones reach critically low stores. Produce no waste. For produce no waste, the 5 Rs come to mind: Refuse, Reuse, Reduce, Repair, Recycle, which all tie into the third ethic to reduce consumption and have a surplus to share. For our drought, that means concentrating on what matters most in the landscape and community to move forward and overcome the issues at hand, to refuse to produce any waste, to reuse as much as possible in light of the current problem, reduce the use of water to preserve for the landscape, possibly by asking people to work together to restrict water use to divert that water from other uses into the landscape. Similarly, there's no reason to grow food that the individual or community won't eat. My wife loves cherry tomatoes, but is the only member of our family who does. One cherry tomato plant is enough for our family. Growing ten doesn't make sense, even if there's more than that have currently escaped into the yard. Design from patterns to details. Patterns help focus our planning, not only in the assemblage of parts, but also in what can happen. Think about a garden you've raised, or what you hear in the news about agriculture, if there's a long dry spell, what are the first plants to begin drooping, wilt, and then die? How would that influence what you grow? In the community, you can also find out, through those acts of observation and being involved, who the leaders are, whether they think they're in charge or not. Ever notice how there's someone who people defer to when making certain decisions? Or who step up and volunteer when something needs to be done? They become leverage points to turn to when problems arise and also the jesus screws you need to keep tight when they're called upon. Within my own family, those people are my father on his side of the family, and my maternal grandmother on my mother's. Who can you identify in your own location or family should the wheels come off the system to call on to make a difference? Integrate rather than segregate. Bring things together, be they the plants and animals in a yard backyard, or the members of a community community. Whether you think individuals are dumb and groups are smart or groups are dumb and individuals are smart, bringing everyone together lends additional intellectual, social, and other yields that help solve problems. Though your neighbor may not be strong enough to lug water down the road to the horticulturist, they may have a wheelbarrow you can borrow to get their water there. Or an old farmer may remember how they made it through a drought years before, aiding your position. Use small and slow solutions. As the drought becomes apparent, rather than making huge drastic changes, we begin with little ones, looking for those leverage points where the smallest action produces the most good. Again, this will vary depending on scale. The home user may decide to eat through some stored foods that don't require water to cook so they can continue watering. A large producer may make that choice to abandon one or two crops, but not whole sections of field. As time passes and the conditions continue, the choices made adapt to the situation incrementally. The line “don't throw the baby out with the bathwater” comes to mind, because if we completely abandon something for a week and the rains come, then the solution could be worse than the problem. Use and value diversity. Permaculture abhors monocultures as much as nature. Using a diversity of plants, animals, and people, keeps the system from having a single point of failure. Even though a few parts may not make it, others may thrive, and the overall system survives. Use edges and value the marginal. Permaculture systems allow for more diversity and ways to integrate the pieces together by looking for the little places to make and use change. Everyone and everything within the system contributes something, it's up to our imagination and observation to find it, to look where others might not, and then to make use of it. Not in an extractive way, but in a functional, regenerative one. Creatively use and respond to change. With this idea, we can engage the artist and the creator rather than the engineer and logician, to move this problem from something negative and life defeating to something positive and abundant. As a drought occurs and deepens, we can use the drier conditions to our advantage. As certain previous plants die off, their passing creates new space for others, which could include bringing in plants with low water requirements or work in poor compacted soils, so we again build for the long term. Techniques that seemed unnecessary in a world without a drought get tried and tested, be those a changes in mulching, something like zai where we plant in the bottom of a shallow hole, or smoothing out the soil surface and direct it so that dew gets caught and directed towards plants on now barren spaces. We could use this as an opportunity to bring together our community with more meals cooked and eaten collectively within a neighborhood to reduce the amount of water used, and to use an economy of scale to cook food for many. And that's just a shotgun approach to looking at a drought and how these different principles allow us to prepare and respond to the disaster. Hold onto those for a few minutes, as I want to walk through a quick rundown of the agricultural/industrial model. The agriculture/industrial model that currently exists suffers from a few problems in regards to responding to something a disaster like a drought. One is the reliance on machines, some of which have limited applications for what they can and cannot plant or harvest. Needing to retool a farm because of ongoing crop failures is an expensive prospect. Now multiply that over many many farms and the impact on food prices and stability. Heck, look at the exploration of corn based ethanol in the United States and impact on world food prices. I recently read an article discussing whether or not it's worthwhile to subsidize and produce ethanol to add to gasoline given the recent impact of drought on food production in the US this year. Ending that usage may keep food prices down, but what about next year, or the year after, or the year after, if changes aren't made now. Which leads to another issue: short term thinking. Market forces and the demands placed on farmers, as I understand things, limits how far out someone can plan. Also a demand for financial profit, especially among multinational corporations that require a profit to satisfy shareholders, produces short term gains at the potential expense of the long term. The head of a company may have the best intent for implementing a 30 or 50 year vision, but when they need to go before a board once a year or quarter and talk about losses as part of a long term plan, unless everyone involved including those investors, are on board, what's the likelihood that leader keeps their job? Another short term issue that comes to mind is a reliance on extractive and functionally non-renewable resources. Initially the drought may not appear that bad to the farmers in the current model because they can turn on well pumps and pull water from the aquifer to irrigate fields. But if the recharge rate of the aquifer is lower than the irrigation rate, the ground water can become depleted. This also occurs in areas with high water tables and shallow wells. The these areas may be to sink a deeper well, but this further exacerbates the issues for others. If you wonder why water rights are such an issue in some areas, and conversations about future resources conflicts could revolve around water, imagine a world where someone doesn't have water to irrigate crops or an inability to access fresh clean drinking water. However, methods exist for reducing this problem. The agriculture/industrial model by itself, doesn't do much to build topsoil. Drive by a field at the end of harvest and look at the stubble sticking up and all that bare ground exposed to the elements. A hard late summer rain turning the runoff first clear, then tan, then brown, and finally almost black as erosion carries away the stuff food grows in. Importing fertilizers can help feed plants as fertility is lost, but what happens when there's nothing to grow in? Look at images of the dust bowl for an idea of how bad things could get in the long term. Short term thinking leads to management issues for how we use and value resources. Markets, as I understand them and recognize that my viewpoint is limited, work largely around the economic role of resources and financial capital. Without being able to assign a fair financial value to resources, or failing to assign a value at all, exacerbates management of limited resources. As I study Natural Resources Law and policy, I'm beginning to see the broad view and why we run into so many issues between industry, economists, conservationists, and activists in the current model of agriculture and industry. The resource section below includes additional links for related topics of interest. So, those are just a few of the problems I see within the current model. Within the bounds that it exists, it works more or less. Billions of people get fed off this system and the response to issues work because of the resources available to do so. However, my biggest concern as it relates to Tony's question, is whether or not there's sustainability in the long term if any of the pieces required for this to work goes away. Which is what leads me to the permacultured society. Let's take those bits and pieces from the principles and tie them all together with a more complete vision of what this society looks like and why permaculture in this case leads to people less impacted by the problem. I think that a permacultured society ultimately leads us towards, to borrow the term from Chuck Marsh, a neo-horticultural revival which creates resiliency and regeneration as the underpinnings of society. To make that happen, a shift needs to occur where more people produce food on a local scale. Figures I've seen and calculated on my own comes to a minimum of 10 percent of a society's population, would need to be producing food via horticulture. Whether on their own property or their neighbors, space needs to be opened up to allow tending where we are, not far away. Because we focus on the local, and generating a yield and a surplus, we take care of those located close to use spatially, reducing the need from someone else far away to do the same. However, should the conditions allow it, we can transfer some of those resources to a place that needs eat. For the drought, that's food to feed the hungry. But, if we're in an OK place, we can move that food to where it needs to go. The focus on local and renewable saves the use of non-renewable resources so that we can use them when appropriate, reducing the feeling they are scarce, and allowing for the feeling of abundance from what we have ready access to. Governance, in my mind, would also be largely on a local scale to make decisions meaningful for the people in a given community. Just as the needs of someone in one country and with one culture may not meet the needs of someone halfway across the world, the same goes from state to state and city to city, or town to city, or nation to city, and all permutations. However, because of a focus on cooperation, the usefulness of a state or nation doesn't go away. The ability to coordinate on a large scale and shift and move resources around on a large scale is useful, but it could be considerably smaller if the communities involved aided and worked with one another while keeping what they have. Which re-localizes economies and lessens the impact of larger scale disasters from occurring, but if they do, there's the will and direction to work through and move forward. When larger scale help arrives they should, to borrow from Ethan Hughes, meet the community where they are and work together, not assume control of the situation. So, bringing that to the issue of a long term drought, here's my permaculture society narrative. As the drought begins because of water conservation techniques, soil building, integrative pest management, and other permaculture standards, the food system is already resilient to many basic problems. A mild drought may elicit no change to practices at all or any noticeable impact. But, as the the lack of rain begins to take a toll, the individuals tending to the horticultural plots see what plants are starting to fail and which ones thrive. They speak with their colleagues, the other growers, to see what's working where and what's not to begin sorting out solutions in their own space and helping those around them save what they can. This early stage also begins the communication process to other communities to find out the extent of the issue and begin seeing where there the drought is localized and who is, no pun intended, weathering this the best. As that information comes together and begins to worsen, the information is passed to community leaders who can help put together broader scale plans to help the growers get food to market. The community can be informed and keep fear from growing by being honest and informed about what is and isn't happening, as well as how everyone can help work the plan. From there, as shortages do arise and become long term, different communities can see about shifting members to other areas nearby where there's more success to help increase food production, or to move resources from one area to another on an on-needed basis. This interconnectivity of the permaculture designed system to inter-operate on many different levels plays a key role in allowing for the resiliency that permeates a design stemming from the principles of design. But, all this is fun to put together because it's predicated by removing the hard part: I didn't have to work out how we get to a permaculture oriented society. That seems to be the big question. I got to assume that it already exists. As of yet, I don't have an answer to that idea, but I do have ideas bubbling up from underneath. Once they mature, I'm sure to share them. In the meantime, do you think that permaculture could lead to a more resilient and regenerative society? Do you have any insight into things I missed you feel are important to the conversation? Let me know. Leave a comment in the show notes. Email me: The Permaculture Podcast . Resources: Redefining Civilization with Toby Hemenway (YouTube Video) Ogallala Aquifer (Wiki) Water Losses in the Middle East (ABC News) NASA Information on Middle East Water Losses The Tragedy of the Commons A copy of the original Garrett Hardin article that started this conversation. Common Pool Resources with Elinor Ostrom (YouTube Video) Externality (Wiki) Extractive Resource Definition Non-renewable Resources (Wiki) Precautionary Principle (Wiki) The Precautionary Principle (YouTube Video with Caroline Raffensperger. Bioneers) Sustainable Use (European Commission)

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Andrew Millison - Teaching The Permaculture Design Course

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Andrew Millison joined me to talk about the Permaculture Design Course and his experiences teaching at both the collegiate and informal levels, on-site and on-line.

Andrew co-taught my advanced permaculture design certificiate teacher training, along with Jude Hobbs and Rico Zook, so I went into this interview with a familiarity with his work and style. In addition to teaching, he continues to design and consult on permaculture installations of all types and sizes, and also works on documenting permaculture projects. There are two videos you should check out, one with Tom Ward and another with Don Tipping. You can find out more about Andrew at beaverstatepermaculture.com. Someone else to know about in the Permaculture community is Andrew's colleague Marisha Auerbach, who currently teaches an online course with him. If you find that his schedule is too busy, or you'd like another voice from the Pacific Northwest, check out her work and you'll be in good hands.

Resources
Beaver State Permaculture
Marisha Auerbach
Barnabus Kane
Brad Lancaster
Tim Murphy
Gary Nabhan
Barbara Rose
Oregon State University Permaculture (4 College Credits)
Oregon State University Permaculture (Non-Credit)
Arcosanti
Ecosa Institute
Prescott College
Caduceus Cellars (Maynard James Keenan's Winery)

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Bonnie Preston - Systemic Change

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My guest for this episode is Bonnie Preston and we talk about systemic change: how to take action within the current political and social environment in the United States to effect change for the betterment of ourselves, our community, and the world around us.

Though the conversation is largely U.S. -centric, the methods and actions apply readily to any democratic form of government where the power of the system arises from the will of the people. I was introduced to Bonnie after a family member attended the Pennsylvania Women in Agriculture Network Woman to Woman conference. There Bonnie gave a presentation “An Activist? Me?” about the way to change legislation through local ordinances and grassroots organizing, in a way that empowers the individual to work towards making a difference.

When my wife got back from the conference Bonnie was the first person we talked about and with the most passion. For my wife, Bonnie struck a chord with the “I can do this!” perspective. With my wife so enthused, I knew I had to talk with Bonnie. I'm glad I did. Our conversation, to me, flows with a narrative beginning with her bio and the years before her birth and the multi-generational push that set Bonnie down the road to become a Librarian and to work for change. Moving forward from that time we receive various introductions from the people and organizations that impacted her life and the actions for meaningful change. I don't know if any of you are familiar with Roger Swain, the man in the red suspenders and former host of The Victory Garden on public television, or read any of his books or articles, but I love his writing for exactly the same reason I liked this conversation: both seem so casual and easy going that I didn't realize the wealth of knowledge being imparted on me until everything was said and done and a few minutes, hours, or maybe even days later we have that “Aha! Moment.” With Roger this usually related to gardening techniques, but with Bonnie it's how to engage in a grassroots, bottom up way that brings people together towards that common cause. If you like this interview with Bonnie and find value in it, please share it with others. Send a link to your friends or family, post it to Facebook or Twitter, or whatever other ways you use to reach people in this wonderfully connected digital age.

Resources
The Alliance for Democracy
New England Alliance for Democracy
Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund (CELDF)
The Daniel Pennock Democracy Schools
Move to Amend
Rights Based Ordinance Examples (A list from the CELDF)
A Call to Citizens: Real Populists Please Stand Up by Ronnie Duggar
When Corporations Rule The World by David Korten
No More Prisons by William Upski Wimsatt
The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander

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Connor Stedman - Carbon Farming - Soils

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My guest for this episode is Connor Stedman who returns to wrap up our conversation on Carbon Farming with a discussion of 4 techniques for capturing and storing carbon in the soil. Those techniques are:

  1. Mulch and Compost
  2. Using Plants
  3. Using Animals
  4. Biochar

I highly recommend you start there: Carbon Farming, Part I. Once you are done, come back, listen to this episode, check out the resources, and start capturing and storing carbon as soon as you are able.

Resources
Biochar Northeast Biochar (Wiki)
Terra Preta (Wiki)

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Eric Toensmeier - Perennials, Broadscale Permaculture & Food Forests

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My guest for this episode is Eric Toensmeier, author of Perennial Vegetables and co-author of Edible Forest Gardens with Dave Jacke, He, along with Jonathan Bates, also wrote the Paradise Lot: Two Plant Geeks, One-Tenth of an Acre, and the Making of an Edible Oasis.

Eric Toensmeier in his garden.

In addition to his work as an author, Eric's diverse background means he's spent his time breeding plants and saving seeds, as well as teaching classes that expand the ways in which we can build a better a better world. You will find much of wthis his website perennialsolutions.org. He is also building the Apios Institute which focuses on regenerative perennial agriculture for a temperate climate. He also happens to be a heck of a nice guy that made for an easy free flowing interview in which we discuss some listener questions submitted via the show's Facebook page, and then delve into a conversation about perennial plants, the broad-scale application of permaculture, and removing some of the fear factor of implementing a forest garden. Throughout you will hear both of us touch on plants we would like to see improved and simple ways anyone who is growing a garden can help domesticate and improve edible perennials.

Resources
Eric Toensmeier
Perennial Solutions
Edible Forest Gardens
Keyline Design
USDA PLANTS Database
Books
Billy Joe Tatum's Wild Foods Field Guide and Cookbook (Out-of-Print. Bookfinder.com link)
Breed Your Own Vegetable Varieties by Carol Deppe
Creating a Forest Garden by Martin Crawford
Edible Water Gardens by Nick Romanowski (Out-of-Print. Bookfinder.com link)
The New American Landscape: Leading Voices on the Future of Sustainable Gardening
Return to Resistance: Breeding Crops to Reduce Pesticide Dependence by Raoul Robinson
Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden
Wild Urban Plants of thr Northeast - A Field Guide

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