After speaking with Bryce and reading the book I find him to be a guru on creating functional plant guilds. We talk about that topic as well as how to discover ecological niches and system mimics so that we can adapt our designs to ever changing conditions, whether they arise from climate change, disease, or simply because a chipmunk or raccoon does not like a particular plant. In this interview I mention natural heritage programs. What I was referred to is a specific program that collects and provides information about important natural resources. These are in cooperation with the Nature Serve network covering Canada, the U.S., and Mexico. The Pennsylvania Heritage site was a go to reference I used repeatedly in my resources management program and is a useful resource for permaculture practitioners. The state specific site for me includes material on local plant communities, inventories at the county level of various plants and animals, species lists for the state, as well as ongoing projects and publications. It is worth looking for this kind of program in your area as the wealth of information is great for your ongoing research when creating a design. A link to the PA site and NatureServe is in the show notes. That ongoing research and education is important because we can’t take a Permaculture Design Course and think that is enough. Something one of my teachers imparted on me was that the PDC is just a beginning, our first step. From there we need to develop a niche based on our interests and passions, something David Holmgren recommended, to really know what it is we are doing, to have relevant experience, and be the experts in our areas of interest. In turn we can find people of like mind and take permaculture further. To be able to show examples that work anywhere in the world, and at the same time have the flexibility in our thoughts and a depth of understanding that we can answer questions truthfully. Be willing to say, “I don’t know,” or, “I haven’t done that before,” and a willingness to find a real solution. Something else Bryce mentioned was building resilience groups. Resilience groups, as presented at Resilience.org, are a way to build connections that coincide nicely with the transition movement. Resilience groups are a broad umbrella under which we can connect with other people on various topics including the transition movement, farm-to-school initiatives, and the efforts of Interfaith Power and Light. If you are in an area and considering starting a transition group or other organization to create a more bountiful world, definitely look to see if there are any resilience efforts underway in your area.

Resources
Integrated Forest Gardening
Plant Guilds eBook
Pennsylvania Natural Heritage Program
Nature Serve 

hat I like about this conversation with Craig is the role we have as designers to act as preservers of the land. We can use the design tools presented in permaculture to create solutions that stop erosion with structures built from natural materials that harvest water by slowing it, spreading it, and sinking it, all while keeping that water from cutting through the earth. Craig does this in a way that doesn’t disrupt the natural flow of water, but takes the path into account. For all of the avocation for the use of particular technique, this approach takes us back to observing the landscape first, and deciding on what is most appropriate rather than looking for a one-size fits all solution. The strategy of water harvesting leads to a number of techniques. Some that Craig mentioned include check dams, one rock dams, rock mulches, and zuni bowls. In the show notes you’ll find a link to a document Craig made, along with Avery Anderson, that explains these techniques in detail, and one other called media luna. I also found a nice piece written by Bill Zeedyk about induced meandering. For those of you who have a copy of Mollison’s Designers’ manual, Chapter 7 Section 3 includes a number of great techniques as well.

Resources
Erosion Control Field Guide by Craig Sponholtz and Avery C. Anderson. This article includes information on Top-Down Watershed Restoration including one rock dam, rock mulch, zuni bowl, and media luna techniques.
An Introduction to Induced Meandering by Bill Zeedyk (PDF)

Projects for Children
Grainy: What Kind of Particles Make Up Soil?
Percolating Water: The Movement of Water Beneath the Earth's Surface
Erosion
Exploring Erosion, Sediment, and Jetties Eroding Away

John and I discuss talk about his life as a farmer and how he is transitioning away from a grain-based diet for his hogs toward developing perennial forages. Familiar with permaculture, he uses tiered priorities to describe his zone model of production, which influences how he interacts with the land. To establish this kind of system John also takes a long view of this work, looking out twenty years in order to reasonably move from the current model to something perennial and permanent. You can find out more about John and his products at: BaconSnackSticks.com Singing Prairie Farm (Facebook)

That world is an abundant one for all life. What world do you want to live in? What are you doing each day to make that world a reality? 

I would like to thank Flavia Alaya and Fr. David Rivera for their invitation to cover this event. I’d also like to thank Mr. James Boner and his A/V Club students at Bridgeton High School, Andrea, Angel, and Reggi, for the connection to the sound booth equipment and for allowing me to share the space with them for the day. Thanks also to all the listeners who contribute to the show who make recordings like this possible via their one-time donations or ongoing monthly support.

When Trish contacted me about her work I wanted to interview her and see her project because she is practicing urban permaculture. With more than half of people worldwide living in cities we need to see and understand the examples of what works where people are. Let’s go there and practice. In additional to that city piece, I also wanted to talk with Trish because she’s relatively new to permaculture and has a different perspective from many of the guests who have devoted years to this material through the practices of design, teaching, or authoring books on the subject. May her voice inspire those of you who are just discovering this system of design to go out there and get your hands dirty. For those of you who have done this for a while, what about going out to explore and try something different. Start a new guild you’ve never thought of before. Tear up an old design and put a new one on paper.

Some things that stand out from this conversation are about how much you can do with not a lot of space. Two-thousand square feet, what Trish originally started with, is less than 1/20th of an acre, yet she has dozens of species of plants there useful to her and the wildlife, and is developing several guilds to expand and integrate into the forest garden. With wildlife, she’s also planting for other species, such as food for her groundhog, pollinator plants for the pollinators, and also water features for birds, snakes, and amphibians. We work with nature rather than against it and can do a lot of good in our designs by including such things, and expands the system to have more yields even if they don’t appear to benefit us directly by producing food or meeting a human need. Finally, I did a lot of what Trish did to gain experience early on volunteering for more experience. If you’re interested in hanging out a sign and doing design, spend a few years working on designs for others whatever chance you get. Here Trish is doing work with the Goodwill and a farm. I worked with a church, and a local non-profit. I’ve had people contact me with questions through Facebook. An old friend of mine, a single father with six children, has been consulting with me via text messages. There are many people who want this information and your help so ask around. Put yourself out there. Tell people what you are doing and you’ll get the assignments you need to help build your portfolio of permaculture design work. If there is any way I can help you get in touch with local groups or organizations to help you get started, let me know. I’m here to help you create a better world, every day. Our Sponsor I’d like to thank Jen Mendez at Permiekids.com for her ongoing sponsorship of the program. We continue to have a dialog about bridging the gap between children and adult learners in education and permaculture. Find out more about her work at permiekids.com. There you will also find information about her series of Edge Alliance webinars, as well as her Educational Design Course. Support the Podcast I am in fundraising mode this fall and need your help to get 2015 off to a good start. If you are in a place where you have some financial surplus in your life, please consider making a one time or monthly contribution to the show. Find out how at: www.thepermaculturepodcast.com/support Get In Touch E-mail: The Permaculture Podcast The Permaculture Podcast with Scott Mann The Permaculture Podcast Facebook: Facebook.com/ThePermaculturePodcast Twitter: @permaculturecst YouTube

That work includes activities like seed swaps or the growing of culturally significant flowers to language development for foreign-born students. As with the conversation with Brad Ward about international development, I consider this interview important for all the ways we can engage using permaculture through culturally relevant means, all without needing to mention P-word. We can engage people directly where they are, and indirectly introduce the ideas and concepts of ecological design and permaculture. This provides a context for the work we do, because that context matters and allows people to see examples of what we are doing, and in turn understand that design, permaculture, and community development all have a place in creating the world we want to live in. The work of Dr. Poole and her students at the Indiana Community Gardens provide one such model for that. As an educator, with an environmental ed background, one of the things that I like about what she’s doing is that it provides a hands-on multi-discipline approach to learning. Here students are able to take what they are learning in the class room, share it with others, and see the direct impacts of this kind of work. I like that it’s more than just a narrow niche to focus on, but broadly based in the community. David Holmgren and others have said that permaculture wasn’t about just design and teaching, but much much more. Chapter fourteen of the Designers’ Manual is the same way. Let’s take what we know, let’s take what we’re good at, and bring it forth into the world in a way that cares for the world that we live in, for all life, and in a way that shares the surplus freely. If this is something you are doing already or would like help getting started with, I’m here to help. If I don’t have an answer, I know plenty of people in the community who do. Together we can work to create a better world, by design.

Resources
Dr. Amanda Poole
Indiana Community Gardens
Indiana University of Pennsylvania
The Appalachian Teaching Project
Julian Steward - Cultural Ecology 

She also mentors permaculture practitioners, such as Ethan Roland of Appleseed Permaculture and the Regenesis Group, to connect our work with business world. Along the way today we talk about her background as a university professor, and in business development for large companies. We also discuss metrics, principles, social structures, and many other topics that lead to a way to find the essence of our work. This essence is more than what we do and is bigger than ourselves. We also talk about hierarchy, anarchy, and responsibility, as well as mechanistic systems, the human potential movement, and living systems. This is a fast-paced, dynamic conversation. Relax and hold on, there is a lot of information here and it’s worth your time whether or not you currently operate a permaculture or other business because these seeds of thought are useful in finding and refining your niche. You can find Carol and her work at CarolSanford.com. What stood out to me in this conversation is the role we can have as educators and also in finding our own essence. As educators, we can draw out the ideas that guide someone and help them to discover their best practices. What works best for them?  What matters? What matters is what we then make time for. Tying that to responsibility can allow leaders to get more done in a way that benefits Earth, themselves, and everyone else. That idea of essence is important to me because it’s something I’ve been working through as your host of this show. What is core to what I do? What is it that is bigger than me that I enjoy so much about this? For a long time I thought it was about the interviews and the information, but the more I do this the more it’s about helping you on your path by making connections to different people and resources and using my social capital to do so. I want you to find your niche and I'm here to help you do that and to bring your vision of permaculture and regenerative practices into the world. What is it that you currently work on? What is your essence? I’d love to hear from you.

Resources
Carol Sanford
Living Systems
Paradigm Shift
John B. Watson - What is Behaviorism?
BF Skinner
Human Potential Movement 

Ethan and Gregory’s work on the Eight Forms of Capital is one of the pieces that most influenced my perspective on permaculture and the different ways we can engage the various aspects of our lives to live and practice more fully what it is we love. Though financial capital is often the focus, and in our system we do need money to live, there are many ways we can create abundance in our lives. Where this material kind of unhinged me from the system that currently exists was in understanding how much value there is in our non-financial capital, and how appreciating someone’s work doesn’t need to be in the form of a direct financial exchange.

The first thank you I ever got for this show was a box containing three bottles of my favorite hot sauce, Secret Aardvark Trading Co. habanero. Or receiving an email from someone about how the podcast changed their life. Or the time someone send pictures of Ghost Pipe flowers growing on their property not far from where I live. Now I know definitively where they are and want to go visit and see them next year when they rise again, adding to my experiential and intellectual property with that plant. Something else I’m coming to understand, which I’ll follow up on when the interview with Ethan’s mentor Carol Sanford comes out in a few weeks, is about what my core abilities are. I’m not well versed or skilled in marketing or raising financial capital. That’s not where my skill set is. I’m good at building other forms of capital, in particular social. I talk to people, make connections, and draw out the stories from others. That’s where my calling is. To make the other pieces of this work viable, I ask for help from others. I appeal to you, the listener, to help support the show. I also leave the various ways to contact me out in the open so I can give back what I’ve learned to you, to help you on your path. In the end there is a value exchange that occurs for everyone involved. I like that. With that introspection around the eight forms of capital comes a personal understanding of our strengths and weaknesses that touches back on what Ethan said about building an ecosystem of businesses that support and grow one another. Some of us are really good at making money. Others are really good at teaching, design, implementing in the landscape, organizing, storytelling, and on and on. As permaculture practitioners let’s help one another. I’m here to help you connect with the stories and voices you might not hear otherwise, so you can find what works for you and get down to your work. I want you to find and fulfill your calling so you can live a life of abundance. Let’s talk and make that happen. 

Brad came to my attention on a recommendation by Eric Toensmeier, originally as a possible guest for the Faith and Earth Care series, but in setting up the interview with Brad, he and I spoke quite extensively about development aid and how permaculture can be used to ask better questions. In turn that allows us to reform our efforts to meet people where they are at. That forms the basis of our conversation. Along the way we also touch on the personal struggles and transformation that comes from wanting to aid others in a meaningful way. As with the conversation with Rachel Kaplan, there is a lot of internal work to bring change out into the world. Whether you have an interest in international development or not, quite a bit of this conversation applies equally to our internal landscape, as well as the business of permaculture. Asking the right questions, and stepping out of our normal frame of reference, changes the quality of our practices. Listen to this interview with Brad and let me know what you think, and how I might assist you on your path. Two other things that stand out from this conversation were Brad’s reference to Pandora’s Box, and the artificial busyness of life. 

I’ve been thinking lately about the myth of Pandora’s Box and how there was something left in the box after all the evils of the world were released, Elpis, the spirit of hope. Though hope wasn’t released, I don’t see that as a negative side of the story, but that we each carry hope, Elpis, inside of us. I know I do with me every day. I am an optimistic person and see the future as bright and abundant, but that we have to take the path seriously and work towards it. Myself, people like Brad, each and every one of you who listens to the show, we are all part of that abundant future. I’m here to use my hope to help you on your path. We can do it. The other piece, is the artificial busyness of life. Something Brad Lancaster asked me to do a show on was how I live a full life with so many things going on, and roles filled. A big part of that is overcoming distractions. I let go of the mindless brain-numbing entertainment that Brad mentioned. I disconnected from advertisements. It took a lot of work, and there are still times I catch myself consuming media, but when I do notice what I’m doing I put it down and move to something of meaning. With that, I continue to use permaculture to design the way I live my life so that I live with intent. Nearly everything I do is a conscious choice. With that comes an acceptance of what matters and what needs to get done or can be left for later. There’s something beautiful about spending an evening with my children and being completely present in their lives. To ask a friend how they are doing, and create a space where I’m not trying to fill the space until I can speak again, but to listen and really hear what they have to say. Your life becomes your own and, as Mark Lakeman spoke to, you inhabit your own story. That’s the big picture idea of what it’s like to let go of that artificial busyness. I’ll put together something that goes through my process of getting to this point so you have something more practical to use in your own life. The world is beautiful and abundant. Let us be stewards of a bountiful future by taking care of Earth, our selves, and each other.

Photographer John, Layne, and I had an incredible time at the Mother Earth News Fair. Thankfully we had three days to enjoy ourselves, from Friday, September 12th to Sunday September 14th, 2014, or we might have been a little overwhelmed, there was so much going on. During our time there we had a chance to meet with or talk to a number of people. If you have a chance to attend one of the Mother Earth News Fairs, as they are held in multiple locations throughout the country, please do. They are well worth your time. Here are some of, but by no means all, of the highlights. First up was Michael Judd, author of Edible Landscaping with a Permaculture Twist. We had a chance to interview him and hang out some throughout the show. Michael was very generous with his time and even more dynamic in person than when we sat down for an interview in the past. If you are near Frederick, Maryland, he is someone worth looking up. As I live not too far from Michael, I want to go visit again and do another formal interview. You can checkout his design company and find more information at: Ecologia Design.

Next we sat down with Tradd Cotter who was just as engaging in person as he was in the interview that came out in early September. We sat down for a while and talked about medicinal mushrooms, which was the second of our videos from the fair. Once the camera was shut off he hung out with us for another hour talking mushrooms and we dug deeper into why it’s important for people to own the knowledge to change the world. He also joked with Layne and John when they showed up to photograph one of his presentations. If you get a chance to take a class with Tradd or see him speak at a conference, do it. It’s well worth your time. John, Layne, and I also have an invitation from Tradd to go visit him in 2015 and tour the facilities at Mushroom Mountain.

There were also Jason and Sera Drevenak of the North American Bushcraft School. Located in Hedgesville, West Virginia, they are not too far from my hometown of Hagerstown, Maryland. Together they offer a number of primitive skill workshops and classes which are right in line with the re-wilding that Ben Weiss and Wilson Alvarez advocate. Jason is a gifted and engaging teacher who lives this. Jason and Sera tan their own hides from road kill, and forge their own bushcraft knives. Of all the workshops I saw, Jason’s on primitive firemaking drew one of the largest crowds I of any of the non-keynote events. People stood around the edges of the stage area four and five deep. I’m planning to go down and take some classes at the North American Bushcraft School sometime, or at least go visit.

I also spoke with Matthew Goldfarb of Fruition Seeds. He and Petra Page-Mann (no relation to me that I know of), have one of the coolest plant breeding programs around that I know about. I heard about their work when talking with Matt Stillerman and Michael Burns at the Fingerlakes Permaculture Site Tour, and after seeing their company in the program wanted to grab them for a few minutes. Matthew and Petra are working to create open-pollinated heirloom varieties that are adapted and resilient in local conditions, unique to the bioregion in which they are developed. I purchased several packets of the Insectary Blend of seeds to plant next year as part of our 2015 garden. Three Rivers EVA – The Western PA Chapter of the Electric Auto Association – had a variety of electric vehicles on-site ranging from custom built cars, trucks, and bicycles, as well as factory products including a Tesla Model S. Sitting up near the electric vehicles was Tara Whitsitt of Fermentation on Wheels. This is a food and fermentation education project that travels the country teaching people about nutrition in a converted bus. If you’ve read any of the books by Sandor Katz, you have an idea of the jars and crocks filling the bus. She had kimchi, kombucha, water and dairy kefir grains, and many many others in a well-designed stable rack allowing everything to remain in the open and on display. Once she’s settled into an area for a few days I want to sit down and have a chat with her. Uncle Mud was running ongoing cob and plaster natural building workshop that was very hands-on and kid friendly. One of the pictures I took here was of a small girl putting plaster on the wall. The man speaking to those around him encouraged her to pull and play while he talked with the other people around him. As a parent I liked the openness and willingness to allow her to learn and experiment. I also met some others folks along the way who are doing good work and I've reached out to them for interviews, including Dan Chiras, of The Evergreen Institute and author of the Natural Home, and Lloyd Kahn, author of numerous books on tiny houses and hand built homes, including the incredible Shelter. While at the fair I also had a chance to sit down with Jen Mendez of PermieKids.com and we talked about permaculture, education, and podcasting for a while. She’ll be joining me on the show as a guest. Some interesting products and organizations from the event. Airhead Composting Toilet. I liked this unit for the small size and easy to empty liquids container. Compared to some other companies the price was rather reasonably at under $1,000. If I were going to purchase something for a tiny-home installation, of what I saw at the show, this is the one I’d go for. Brooder Bottle Cap. This is a simple ball valve design that fits to a plastic soda bottle, whether 20oz or 2 liter, to water chickens and other animals. It strikes me as an appropriate technology because of the simplicity and durability, I also have been reading about a move in commercial chicken operations to move towards bottle feeding and this is an inexpensive way to do so. Al, the owner, was generous with his time explaining the idea behind the products as well as how to train your chickens to use them. He also wants to create a 501©3 that can produce these watering bottle caps for distribution to developing countries and disaster areas. Retail at the show was $5.95 for a pair. Chatham University, located in Pittsburgh, PA, was onsite and handing out information regarding two interesting degree programs. A Bachelor and Master of Sustainability. If you are involved in permaculture and would like some additional education to support your work, something I’ve found useful in the credentialed society in the United States, this is a direction worth investigating. Another suggestion for a program is the one I'm enrolled in, which is a Master of Park and Resource Management at Slippery Rock University. Patrick and Matthew of Go Sun Stoves were there demoing products. I'd talked to Patrick last year so it was good to see him there and to meet Matthew. They both met at a Permaculture Design course and worked on developing their innovative solar oven. I want to pick one of these up and spend a year cooking with it through all seasons and conditions and see what living with this type of solar cooker is really like. With the idea of using natural and renewable resources, an interesting wood splitter onsite was the WoodOx Woodsman. Having watched my father put an axe into his foot, twice, as well as splitting wedges fly when struck off center, these three and four way splitters are tools that safely handle the task of preparing firewood for a self-sufficient homestead. Mushroom Sources: At the event were two purveyors of mushroom spawn and supplies. One was mentioned by Michael Judd when we sat down and spoke, which is Smugtown Mushrooms out of Rochester, NY. The other was Back Bone Food Farm in Oakland, MD. If you’d like to try someone else, here are other options. Finally, I’d like to give a personal thanks to Brandy Ernzen, the PR Manager for Ogden Publications. She made the entire experience of working the Mother Earth News Fair easy and simple. That ends the report from the Mother Earth News Fair by the crew at The Permaculture Podcast. 

Get in touch by leaving a comment below!