This is the second interview with Mr. Lakeman. If you haven't heard it, please listen to his first interview before digging into this one. In this conversation we talk about permaculture and our city landscapes. Part of this is examples of how to rebuild our communities and bring people together, as well as understanding further the story we inhabit and how we can use permaculture to understand our own story and build regenerative cities. With the places Mark took the conversation I did my best to hang on and enjoy the ride. Sometimes I'd like to go through an interview and reflect on it point by point, and give a full breakdown of all my thoughts that come from a given conversation. But if I did that, I'd only release 8 shows a year and they'd be 8 hours long. I'd become more like Dan Carlin's Hardcore History rather than this weekly show with so many guests. Because of that I'm left with only so much to say at these end of show wrap-ups without becoming long winded. So in this case, and paired with the last interview with Mark, are three pieces that I scribbled down about wanting to cover further: Regeneration by addressing whole systems, becoming a facilitator for other people, and using permaculture to inhabit your own story. When it comes to regenerating the world around us by addressing whole systems I think back to the interview with Michael Pilarski, which had quite an impact on me. I almost think of his idea about “cleaning up our own little piece of the world” as a principle to approach how to get all the work done that rests before us. To that includes beyond the landscape and the wild, to be involved in our local community, building relationships with neighbors, and by engaging others. I've found that one of the easiest ways to start breaking down those interpersonal walls is by remembering that kindness costs me nothing and it can bring joy and delight in the world for others. I've been surprised what a difference this makes for my relationship with others and taking the time to make a space for someone to be open, honest, and vulnerable. If this isn't something you're comfortable with, and I realize that I am an extroverted person by the nature of what I do, then what are others ways that you can open doors and space for others, and show kindness in your own way? That idea of each of us having our broad niches, as David Holmgren implored in his interview, and to step away from the specialization that Mark spoke of in our conversation this time, is another place where we can reach out and aid is by becoming facilitators for other people. Each of us have skills and abilities we can share with others. I want to insure that each and everyone of you can find a path that works and gets you where you want to go. To do that requires to find your own story and inhabit it. I know we don't all have the same opportunities in our lives for different reasons, that some of us have been damaged by life, physically, mentally, emotionally, but we can work on ourselves and grow and be the people we want to. Take the time to use the principles of permaculture and look at yourself. If you need help, get it. If you can help others, provide it. Though it may be many years spent doing something we don't enjoy so we have a bit of time and money to pursue our real interests, we can get there. My own path took over a decade. Let's work together to make sure your journey doesn't take that long, or, if it does, that you are able to enjoy every moment of it. Other episode you may enjoy: Invisible Structures with Adam Brock Dave Jacke on Permaculture Exploring Permaculture with Larry Santoyo Resources: Mark Lakeman Communitecture The City Repair Project The Planet Repair Institute

My guest for this episode is Ethan Hughes. He is part of the team that lives at the Possibility Alliance and Stillwater Sanctuary in La Plata, Missouri. This is Ethan's second time sitting down to talk to me for the show, having joined me last year for our conversation I called “Radical Possibilities.” I recommend you listen to that episode first, even if you've already heard it, as an introduction to this one. Once you're done there, come back and catch up. This time around, at the suggestion of my permaculture colleague and listener Josh Evans, more on the practical side of things. Though, as you'll hear, how Ethan and his community practice their methods is as much about the internal work as the external, and insuring we meet ourselves where we are at to make good decisions that we're ready for, rather than jumping in too deep with both feet and no way to cushion the landing. Much of what Ethan and his community do rests in their embodiment of what they do, so you won't find a lot of resources in the show notes for this episode. What you will find, however, is their contact information. You can send Ethan in particular, or the Still Water Sanctuary, in general, a letter to: The Possibility Alliance 85 Edgecomb Road Belfast, ME 04915 207-338-5719 You can also visit them at that address, but make sure you send a letter or call ahead and arrange the visit before you go. Though they're open to visitors, please consider their community and personal space, as well as your own. I can easily say that my first interview with Ethan was one of the the top 3, if not the top, interview episode of the show. I think that this follow up will wind up ranking right up there with it. What I loved about this conversation, as well as the last one, was Ethan's candor and honesty with us about how their site is developing, their successes and failures, and that it is a gradual process. We have to move at our own pace and in our own time. Some will be quicker, some will be slower, but as long as we keep putting one foot in front of the other we can get there. Something else which stood out, among the many quotable moments, was that idea that “speed is overrated.” I can completely understand that, especially after the life I've had this fall. Watching the weather change, the stream begin to have ice form in the stillness of the water flow behind rocks, the cardinals and blue jays beginning to rest upon the bird feeders, and things slow down, I'm thankful for a slower, if only slightly so, pace. It reminds me that I'd rather do one thing at a time, really well, than to do a bunch of things all at once that aren't my best. To provide a create a level of quality to what I do, rather than quantity. To do that, I think, requires us to slow down, but not to look at a task as so daunting that we live in fear of doing it or that it requires perfection. I struggled with that idea of needing perfection, as well as my own fear of success or being seen as a failure, for a long time. Once I started doing different things, to try my hand at living the life I wanted to, the failures weren't as big as I told myself. The setbacks, though often, weren't as horrible as they could have been. So now, everyday, I take a step, however small, closer to the authentic life I want to live, and tell my own story, rather than inhabit someone else's. It isn't easy, but we can walk this road together. Where are you going? What do you want to do? If you enjoy this interview, you may also like: Mark Lakeman Bill Wilson Damien McAnany Resources: Ethan Hughes First Interview: Radical Possibilities

My guest for this episode is Mark Lakeman, an architect, planner, and trained permaculture practitioner from Portland Oregon. Our conversation today is part one of two. In this conversation we discuss participatory culture and community building through action, as a way to engage the social structures that are vital to the ongoing development a better world. The ideas presented here form the basis for our second conversation where we delve more fully into urban permaculture. Start here and then look for the next show in a few weeks. What I like about this conversation is that idea of building culture and community through action. That we're going out and engaging others, pushing the lines of the possible, and bringing more delight and joy in the world in a way that's non-violent and inclusive. The public corridor, where everyone wanders, becomes the space to reach others. Though I don't touch on politics in the show, and have no intention to generally speaking, the more I speak with people, the less I see divides between us as individuals and groups. If we focus on what we can do to make our own space better and on sharing that with others so we can find what we have in common, the world becomes a more peaceful bountiful place to live. Together we can find abundance rather than scarcity. Joy instead of fear. Won't you join me in seeing that happen? Other episodes you may enjoy: Invisible Structures with Adam Brock Dave Jacke on Permaculture Exploring Permaculture with Larry Santoyo Resources: Mark Lakeman Communitecture The City Repair Project The Planet Repair Institute

Dennis has investigated colony collapse disorder and the on-going bee die off since Dave Hackenberg first reported large colony losses. I wanted to speak with Dennis after seeing him in the documentary “Who Killed The Honeybee?” and then happened to see a recent research paper he was involved with, as well as his TED talk “A Plea for Bees”. During our conversation we talk about his work with bees, the ongoing loss of bee colonies in the United States and elsewhere, the role of bees as pollinators in our food supply, and what we can do to support honeybees and native pollinators. Two things I really enjoyed about this particular conversation was how precise and technical the conversation got regarding the research and issues surrounding bees, while still remaining accessible. For all of his work and research, I never felt like Dennis spoke over our heads. Part of that, I imagine, come from his love and passion for bees. Listening to him describe the co-evolution of flowers and pollinators reminded me of the beauty of nature and why I love this work and want to take care of this little space of mine and build a better world by including habitat for pollinators and tend to the other species around us. If you enjoy this episode you may enjoy: Native Plants with Dr. Doug Tallamy Stream Restoration with Dr. Bern Sweeney The Soil Food Web with Jeff Lowenfels Resources: Dennis vanEnglesdorp, PhD Dennis vanEnglesdorp: A Plea for Bees (TED Talk Video) Bee Informed Partnership Crop Pollination Exposes Honey Bees to Pesticides Which Alters Their Susceptibility to the Gut Pathogen Nosema ceranae (Research Article)

This story was his response to an assignment to imagine what each student's design site would look like over time. To step forward 100 years from now and then work their way back to the present. Through this so they could explore how, when, and why to implement various pieces of the design, and that it could be carried on once they were no longer part of the process. Here Matt answers all those questions in an engaging narrative that shows the power of storytelling. May you enjoy this story as much as I did.

The Gift
llene awoke to the sound of the song bird at her window again. The cool spring breeze from that window was beginning to warm with the early morning rays of sun. Carried on the breeze were faint traces of the perfumed blossoms of the fruit trees in the backyard food forest. She got up and quickly dressed as she knew her chores would need to be completed before her mother allowed her to start her studies.Being self-schooled Allene had read about the educational systems of the past and pitied those poor children in their government schools of long ago.

They were never able to delve deeply into the subjects that interested them most – for Allene it was nature. She threw open the back door of her home and put on her garden work boots before heading to the shed to fill the feed bucket for the hens. Her routine was to carry the feed down to the hen house and exchange it for the day’s egg harvest – hens willing. Along the way she would walk through the “garden” where her dad tended some annuals in amongst the many varieties of perennial food plants. She would pick anything that looked past its prime and add that to her feed bucket as an extra incentive for the one or two broody hens. She had learned to pick her battles. The hens provided plenty of eggs for the family and the surplus was sold to pay for their feed which supplemented their foraging. But on this land it wasn’t just the hens that enjoyed a bountiful foraging experience.

Allene had heard the stories of when her ancestors settled this land over 100 years ago and how they had laid out a plan for building a sustainable homestead that would feed their family for generations. Now, as she looked at the land around her she tried to imagine what it must have been like for her great-grandfather those many years ago. He had named the homestead Wintershaven – after the family name, and while his original plans had been modified many times by his descendants the overall goals remained the same.

Each year at the annual harvest festival when family and neighbors gathered at her home, Allene listened to the telling of the story and stared hard at the pictures on the wall of her family’s dining room. She could almost hear her great-grandfather speaking the story himself. On her tenth birthday she had been given access to the family archives and had read her great-grandfathers words in his own (sloppy) hand writing. It was from those words that she had found her life’s calling. She realized at that time something she had only vaguely sensed up to that time – that all this was for her.

The laying boxes were empty of hens today as she stood on top of a block her father had placed for her to be able to see in the top boxes. Reaching in to each box she retrieved the eggs, some of which were still warm from their recent laying and placed them gently into her basket. She filled the feeder as the hens scrambled around her feet cackling at her quietly as if to fill her in on the day’s news. They became very excited as she tossed some over-ripe fruit and wilted greens to them and she watched as they worked out their literal pecking order. Before returning to the house she looked up to survey the trees overhanging the chickens’ yard. There were mulberry trees that were taller than any structure on the farm – their fruits ripening in the morning sun. She knew that as the fruits began to drop into the pen her feed bucket would get lighter as the chickens filled up every day on the bounty dropping from the sky. That had been part of the plan, laid out those many years ago in an effort to address the looming issues of the failing society of which her great-grandfather was a part.

Every plant, every structure, every land feature should have multiple functions – he had written. The mulberries provided shade for the chickens and protection from hawks. Its fruit would feed the chickens in times where feed was hard to come by. The leaf drop would mulch the soil and add to the chicken manure to revitalize the ground when the chickens were shifted to their other paddocks. Wood from the mulberries was used for structures throughout the farm – even her crib had been made of mulberry wood and later recycled as a brooder for baby chicks. Produce no waste had been one of the often-quoted phrases in her family for generations. Past the mulberries, she could see that the new understory plantings she had helped her father put in last fall were growing well. The hazels were bright green amongst the many varieties of cane fruits and herbs. Beyond that, the older fruiting trees, may haws, pawpaws and young pecan trees were now fully leafed out and benefiting from the recent rains. The land beneath these trees undulated gently in a series of catchments that slowed and retained the rain as it fell and moved across the landscape. The term her great-grandfather had used was “swales” when he dug those ditches so many years ago.

Allene had been almost 9 years old before she realized these types of changes to the land’s shape were not natural occurrences. At first it had bothered her that someone would mess with nature in that way, but as she visited neighbors’ farms around the area she noticed the ones doing well all had similar earthworks of differing ages. The abandoned farms at the end of the road had none of these but the land there was still barren from the 20-year drought her grandmother told her about and no one had lived on those farms since. Several folks had talked of rehabilitating those places but with only shovels and strong backs to work with it would take years to do what her great-grandfather had done in mere weeks – back when the oil still flowed. But it took that drought back in the 70’s and the decline of cheap energy for Allene’s family to realize the value of the land they had inherited.

Allene shook her head to clear the daydream she was enjoying as she stood in the chicken yard with hens pecking about her feet. She picked up the egg basket and the feed bucket and headed back to the shed. After securing the shed she brought the eggs in to the summer kitchen just off the back porch of her family’s home and proceeded to clean then sort the eggs. The ones that were uniform in color and shape she would place carefully into well used cartons to take to the neighbors on the mid-week delivery list. The others she left in the basket placed in the indoor kitchen for her mother to use for the day’s meals. Just a few more chores and she could return to reading that “new” old book from her family’s library.

She hurried out the door again and was met this time by a huge hairy monster of a dog that proceeded to “kiss” her all over. Baxter was as excited as Allene was annoyed by his affections. The dog was part of the homestead and a hard worker, but he seemed to like interacting with his human–pack members as much as he enjoyed protecting the feathered ones. After what she thought was a thorough ear scratching Allene continued on her mission up the hill to the solar well house.

The pump was humming quietly as the sun tracked higher into the sky and the storage tank was filling nicely. The family used this water for irrigating the kitchen garden in the front yard and it was Allene’s responsibility to open the valve from the storage tank to the irrigation system for 20 minutes each morning (unless it had rained the night before). The irrigation system was something her great-grandfather had written about but never had the time to implement in his lifetime. In fact, it wasn’t until the electric grid went down for a whole year and the water from the rural water district stopped flowing that her grandfather was forced to install the solar well pump and storage tank. Her father told her he had been her age at the time and complained bitterly at the amount of work he was tasked with. As part of the project they also ran piping throughout the property for irrigation – completing this project just 5 years before the great-drought. It was a large part of what saved the homestead from the fate of so many others at that time. Her father learned his lesson and reminded her of this anytime she complained about hard work. Her last chore was Allene’s favorite.

For the 20 minutes it took to irrigate the kitchen garden she was tasked with the daily foraging walk. Retrieving her big basket from the summer kitchen counter she headed out on a well-worn path that would take her to the back of the family’s property and back. Her fondest and earliest memories as a young child were of toddling along with one or both of her parents as they daily walked the trail around the property to retrieve whatever was in season at the time. Tending a struggling plant here, chopping and dropping some branches there to let in light for the plants below, finding hidden gems of nature everywhere – enjoying the goodness of the land was her favorite thing in the whole world. Her parents would patiently teach her as they walked together, what plants were good to eat and when, what plants had special needs and how to meet those. She learned the names of the plants and trees and helped transplant out whatever the family had decided to add that year. Most of what they planted was merely propagated from cuttings or seeds collected elsewhere on the property. It was their responsibility, her father had said, to plant the trees that their grandchildren would eat from. But she came to realize early on that planting a tree was not enough to insure its success. She learned about companion plantings and guilds that her family had developed over the years to give each plant a better chance of success by meeting its needs with a nearby planting.

Her grandmother called it, their “garden of eatin’”, and what a garden it was. Chestnuts and pecans formed the upper canopy layer with large old oaks filling in a few gaps. Allene marveled at how those oaks were probably growing here when her great-grandfather purchased the land and began its transformation. Multiple varieties of multiple species of multiple types of fruit trees and nut trees formed the understory. She could see the peaches and plums were already fully in bloom as the bees from her mother’s hives buzzed-about lazily. The almonds and the edible dogwoods were just starting to develop blooms. Climbing these understory trees she could count 6 different types of vining plants including muscadine grapes, hardy kiwi, maypops, and hops that her dad used in brewing his nasty beer. Squirrels darted amongst the vines and up the trees and chattered at her in protest as they did every morning. Shrubs surrounded most of the trees and some of these would produce fruit for the jellies and jams she would make with her mother in the coming months.

Below these shrubs there were culinary and medicinal herbs whose Latin names she still struggled with but whose uses she could recite like her life depended on it – and sometimes it did. Every day there was something new to see or learn about. Many was the day she would spend the afternoon researching some pest or plant she had come across during this morning walk – thank goodness for her family’s extensive library of books about the natural world. Every day she would return to her home with her basket filled with delicious foods for the family meals that day.

On many occasions, her mother would leave her a note to gather certain medicinal plants to use in her practice as she went about caring for the others in the community. Sometimes her father would have her check his traps along her walk – a job she hated but understood its importance. As she would grow and learn she would come to realize that these walks were really a walk back in time. For her, the path had always been one of provision and sustenance but she knew it had not always been this way. Some of the trees she planted with her parents last year wouldn’t provide food for anyone for 10 years or more. Some of the trees she harvested from were older than her father and had been put here for this very purpose – to provide abundance for her family by those she had never met. She knew enough about the greater world around her to know that she had been given a gift by her ancestors in the way they had tended this land. She knew it was her duty to continue this tradition for those who would come after her. The weight of that responsibility was lifted each day by the joy she felt as she explored the path laid out before her.

Allene hurried along, gathering good things as she went. She was looking forward to getting back home so she could blow the dust off that old book she'd found in the family’s library with her great-grandfather’s handwritten notes in the margins. It was a book about a subject called Permaculture, and she was eager to learn what that meant.

(Used with permission from Matt Winters.)

We covered some of those core thoughts in this conversation, which were reflections of the interview with Dave Jacke. Three of the important pieces of functioning as a professional were: not knowing what we don't know, forming a professional group, and working with collaborators. That piece about not knowing what we don't know sticks out because of the hurdles I'm encountering as the podcast, and my role in the permaculture community, continues to grow. There are licensing requirement, taxes to be accounted for, insurances to carry, and a host of other pieces of the puzzle that aren't immediately clear when starting this kind of work. Only as I bump up against them do they become clear and require a reactive response rather than a proactive one. Depending on what kind of work you do you've probably encountered those days where something comes up you have to deal with that completely takes the wind out of your progress. That's what this is like. I'm not stumbling into my issues so much as hitting them head on. That's where I find developing your own professional group is important. Even if you form this with fellow students from a PDC, it's likely you'll each reach your different milestones and obstacles at different times and can share those discoveries with your group. You can also share notes on who your accountant, banker, lawyer, or insurance agents are. That's where we need to collaborate with others. We only have so many minutes in each hours, hours in a day, days in a week, and so on. Unless you've found a way to suspend time, or go without any sleep, then there is only so much you can fit into your schedule. Working with others can free you to focus on what it is you do best, and bring in those who can handle the other pieces for you, while also sharing what they know.

If you enjoy this episode, you should also check out:
Edible Forest Gardens and Permaculture with Dave Jacke
Josh Trought and D Acres
Professional Permaculture with Erik Ohlsen
The Permaculture Credit Union with Bill Sommers
Community Development Finance with Bill Sommers

Resource:
Damien McAnany
Abundant Earth Landscaping and Tree Care (Damien's Company)
ISA Certification information Natural Target Pruning (PDF)
Silky Saws (Damien's Prefered Saws)
Bear Saw (Scott's Current Saws)
Air-Spade

He's been a member of the community for some time and I enjoyed the conversation with him. He had me laughing, hard, quite a few times, though I removed them so you could hear him talking and not my guffawing in the background. His delivery is easy going, and, even though he said he doesn't like soundbytes, incredibly quotable. In this conversation we talk about Bill Mollison, the misrepresentation of permaculture, applying the concepts of permaculture broadly, and arriving at solutions. Though his website is under construction, you'll find his website, which includes contact information, at earthflow.com. He also teaches with the City of Angels Permaculture Academy, find our more about that course at cityofangelspermaculture.com. I really enjoyed the note that we ended on, “What about embracing sustainability because we love the things we love about the present, not because we fear the future?” and will leave that as it is for you to take out into the world. Some of my favorite quotes from the conversation with Larry:

- Apply it [permaculture] to everything equally.
- There's no skill we can't use to get through this. We need everybody.
- Sectors trump everything. Sectors beat two of a kind.
- Don't impose a static solution on a dynamic problem.
- You're talking about the details when you need to be talking about the bigger pattern.
- Learn how to do things. That's gonna help people.

Did you like this interview? You also might enjoy these conversations:
More Natural Building with Bob Theis
Edible Forest Gardens and Permaculture with Dave Jacke
The Permaculture Handbook: An Interview with Peter Bane
Radical Possibilities with Ethan Hughes

Resources:
Earthflow Design Works
City of Angels Permaculture Academy
In Danger of Falling Food (Video with Bill Mollison)
The Hand Sculpted House by Ianto Evans

Go back two episodes and check that one out if you haven't already. During that previous show I mentioned that, if one has the means, they should invest in the things they believe in so that others might do the same. At the time my focus was on material goods. Now I want to take that a bit further, and look at spending our money and time, if we have extra of either, to invest in non-material things we believe in from this wide wonderful world we find ourselves inhabiting at this moment in time. There are quite a few people in the permaculture community that pushed my thinking in asking why it's so important to use investing, in material things, but also ourselves and others, as a way to build a better world. Some of those that come to mind are Ben Falk, Bob Theis, Dave Jacke, and Ethan Hughes. Ben Falk got to when I read his book, The Resilient Farm and Homestead. When first flipping through the pages I landed on a section where he mentioned having a slate roof and copper gutters because of how long they last, and that paying for them upfront became an investment in the future because those two materials could last more than a human lifetime. At first it was hard to consider justifying the monetary cost to someone, as one of my considerations is about how to get the ideas of permaculture, and with that natural building, home renovation and construction and so on, into the hands of those who need it the most. But as I sat and chewed on the thought for a while, it became that, if one has the means, this is a good way to spend one's money, because it does cost less over the long run. Then there's was the second interview with Bob Theis, which came out just before this episode, so go back one show and listen to that too before continue. Anyway, Bob and I spoke about standing seam metal roofing, it's lifespan, and that the steel can be recycled at the end of the roof's usefulness. As I'm in the process of replacing the roof on my own house, and looked at the numbers, Ben and Bob are both right. It does make sense to use this material. That roof will outlast me if I stay in this home, and still provide solid protection for the next owner, but my family still needs the means, right now, to make that happen, rather than make a cheaper choice. I'll admit, it's at the limits of what we can afford, but I'd rather do that than put ashpalt shingles back up. By making this decision, and understanding the short-term trade-offs for my family and my, perhaps incorrect, understand of the way markets are supposed to work, my family directly helps, in our small way, to keep the roofers with the necessary skills to install these materials in business, as well as the manufacturers. There's a long string of people who benefit by deciding to do this, and there are ancillary benefits of, hopefully, helping to keep the price down for others who follow this road behind us, while also making a choice close to the core ideas of permaculture. That last part, of all the people that this benefits, goes back to Dave Jacke, and building up the larger structures that are necessary to make this really happen. To network, communicate, and lend our aid when and where possible. To, as I often quote from Ethan Hughes, meet people where they're at to help them meet their needs, and not inflict our own perspective on them. But, also from Ethan Hughes, to recognize the impact we can make by deciding to place our money and time where it matters to us. That moment in Ethan's story where he talks about being in a room with a bunch of other permaculture folks and they tally up their net worth and find out it's millions of dollars really stuck with me that we can, all by giving a little of ourselves, ensure we have a much bigger impact in the world than we can imagine. And all that leads to this final part, and that there are a lot of projects out there that need our help to get off the ground and flourish. You have ones, I'm sure, that are important to you that you'd like to see people help you with. I know I have my own. There are two at the moment, beyond the podcast, that I'm putting my energy into. My friend's Will and Ben's project “Restoring Eden” where they want to have the space and resources to investigate, and report back to the community, on Zone 4 permaculture, and how tending the wild can be a viable opportunity for people. I'm putting this out and they have less than 2 weeks left in their campaign, they need your help to get there. And, so you know, I do have a stake in this one, having pledged some of my own funds to the project. Something else on my radar is The Molina Center, because their executive director, David Pitman, contacted me. The Molina Center is looking to use permaculture as a way to assist at risk youth. They want to build a center where youth can come, learn about permaculture and business practices, and leave with real skills and tools for their future. Though the website for The Molina Center is still in development and needs more information to clarify a lot of the path ahead of them, I called Mr. Pitman as a follow-up to the information he sent me, and he was completely transparent about the state of everything at the center, his background (which includes music therapy), their research (which is being handled by one of their staff members who is a PhD candidate), and answering a question I had about their non-profit status. He even went so far as to send me copies to those documents. So, even though they might not be very far along, everything looks to be in-line with their mission and offer to be open and honest along the way. I find this project important because of what it adds to the literature of how we can apply permaculture to other systems and structures. I won't call Permaculture a design system for everything, but as I'm learning from my friend, and listener, the philospher, who for his privacy I'll call David B., PhD, there are some philosophical underpinnings that cast a wide net across the whole of human experience. And The Molina Center's project also bears personal meaning to me, in my role as a father and knowing what a difference meaningful mentors can have. And, as a friend, to some people in Pennsylvania, who run a non-profit called The Bodhana Group that benefits children who were victims of abuse. In the end, this stuff matters to me, and I know there are projects that matter to you, and places where you step-up and donate your time and money. I want to know about those projects, and groups, which you find important. The ones you support. The ones that could benefit from reaching a larger audience and the broader permaculture community, so that we can let others know. I'm not asking that you put up money for everything that makes it onto your radar, but rather to recognize that, though we might not have the financial capital to share, we have other ways to help those people and projects that resonate with us. We can share what's happening with our social circles, via social media, or if we live near a project, donating our time and skills. On this show it's important to me for you to hear as many voices and ideas as possible so you can find someone you might not heard of who you can connect with. The same goes with these projects. As David Holmgren spoke to that idea of exploring a niche, and becoming a master of several areas, if we all dig in and dig deep within ourselves, we can see the ways that we can make the biggest impact with our skills and who we are. And, because I'm thinking about the ways we can help others with our own capital, please check out “8 Forms of Capital” by Ethan Roland and Gregory Landua. There's a lot of good material in that article that I keep coming back to. We can use those ideas to build the socio-economic structures required to make permaculture flourish in the world in which we live. If we work together, giving a little of ourselves and our time, we can design and build a better world. Resources: Restoring Eden The Molina Center The Molina Center Indie Go Go Campaign The Bodhana Group 8 Forms of Capital by Ethan Roland and Gregory Landua

If you haven't listened to the last interview with Mr. Theis, please go back and start there, as we jump right into the conversation this time around. This introductory list isn't all inclusive, but we cover different construction techniques, including catalan, or tile, vaulting which is a quick way to build load bearing arches. We return to the conversation of labor costs and the trade-offs involved in using natural building techniques, particularly in developed countries where labor is more expensive, or if we decide to be an owner-builder and the issues that can arise from tapping the good will of our family, friends, and neighbors in helping to build our natural home. Home renovation is covered in more detail, including what roofing materials to consider using, and why some are not ideal. There is some time spent talking about thatching, a craft that I have a deep interest in exploring one these years. We wrap things up by looking at some interesting emerging building materials.

Check out the resources section below for a more information on these topics, and the other people and ideas touched on by Mr. Theis in the interview. One of my takeaways from this is that we need to keep looking for new and novel ways to use the resources we have available, especially items that might be discarded or seen as having little value, and also to see what old ways we can re-discover.

In the interview with Robert Kourik, he talked about some of the ideas he found when walking through the stacks of his library and looking through old books, such as Mrs. O'Brien's gardening techniques. What is sitting on your bookshelves waiting to be found? What is in your local library that I, or others, might never see? What ways of doing can our elders teach us that was passed on to them from their now deceased parents, grand parents, or even great-grand parents? As we find that information, how can we apply our creativity to synthesize the new and the old together, while also investing in them so others can see the possibilities? Also, how can you apply your own interests, and special skills, to creating new possibilities in ways that I or others might not consider? Something that comes to mind from this conversation is the business opportunity that could be created here in the U.S., and probably elsewhere, for someone who wanted to explore making cross-laminated timber panels out of local resources. As Bob mentioned, in the Pacific North-West, there are trees getting taken out by beetle kills, and I think of the damage done by the emerald ash borer in the South. Or, as I mentioned, to explore doing this with pallets. I imagine folks taking this idea and finding local materials, particularly pallets, and experimenting with wood of different dimensions, different adhesives, and so on, and then sharing what they find. Can it be done on a small scale in a home wood shop and then used to create, say a shed, as a working example? Perhaps you build that shed with cross laminated timber panels and then put a thatched roof on it, and send me a picture. That would make my day. Another part of this time with Mr. Theis that stands out was where he talked about placeholder and transition materials, such as the rigid foam panels compared to the soy and vegetable oil based panels. I think that they play a role, by being a good solution now, while we wait for these other, better, emerging materials to make it to market, or while we wait, as the example of the cork insulation, comes down in price. As we learn more, experiment more, and then invest in the pieces that make sense for us, where we live, we can help bring down the price for others. Or, another side of this, is just asking our builders and suppliers if they've every used, or carry, these materials, such as mineral wool. Get them thinking about other options, and spread the idea that these possibilities exist. The direction we're headed may be slow to turn, and may take a few decades or generations, but we can invest today, in a better tomorrow.

Resources:
People and Places
Bob Theis
Deanne Bedner (Thatching)
Muhammad Yunus
LLoyd Khan author of Shelter
Dancing Rabbit Ecovillage
Low Tech Magazine
International Straw Bale Conference

Construction Materials
Aerated Autoclaved Concrete (AAC)
Cellulose Insulation
Expanded Cork Insulation C
ross-Laminated Timber - A Primer (PDF)
Mineral Wool Insulation

I want a world where there are vaccines, running water, a switch turns on a light, and we can communicate across the gulf of space and time by sending electrons out into the aether between devices. A world where we can still communicate with others across the internet via computers and cellphones, with text, audio, or video. To me, that ability to communicate, instantaneously, across vast distance makes the world a more egalitarian place because we're not alone.  We don't struggle or succeed in a vacuum, but can share that with others. We can shine a light on the warts that exist in the darkness, but also share our triumphs.

In order to do that, and again this is just my opinion, requires a shift away from the "Take. Make. Waste" cycle of consumer capitalism towards a place where we can begin making better use of what we do have.  For those who have the means, invest in what you believe in to help reduce the cost for others who want to do the same.  Be intentional with our choices, so items we use last longer, or can be repaired or upgraded when needed.  Value what we have, so others may value what they have.  And, as I remind my small children on a near constant basis it seems, is not to worry if someone has more than us, but to worry that that someone has enough.   You might say that these are some principles that I prescribe to when it comes to what needs to happen to see permaculture become a broadly viable system, but what exactly that means for each of us, I'm not going to say. We're told, emphatically by Bill Mollison in the big black book of permaculture, that our prime directive is to take responsiblity for our own actions and those of our descendents, and to do it now.  So, to borrow from Ethan Hughes for a moment, that means moving from a luxury SUV to a luxury Jaguar or Mercedes, then that's on you.  I'm not here to be some kind of permaculture police to make things happen.  I don't see force as an answer.  We all arrive at our own place through a variety of means.  Make the best choice you can now, in this moment of time, and take action on it.  Then make your next best choice when you are able, and take action on it, and so on. Which leads me back to the conversation of Michael Pilarski. 

If each of us, right now, worked to make our own little place in the world better, and in line with our own perspective on what that means within the boundaries of permaculture, we could show the world the difference these ideas could make.  We can show a world of abundance and joy, rather than scarcity and fear. Lastly, on all of these ideas of permaculture, I do believe, based on the numbers I've seen from some of the biointensive gardeners, research done by Master gardeners in the United States, as well as the output of family gardens in South East Asia, that permaculture can feed the world.  All 7+ billion of us.  Doing so would would require a shift of magnificent proportions to do so, if we wanted to see it happen in 1 generation, which I think that would take force, and force is not something I would want as part of the path forward because these decisions are small decisions.  Local descisions.  And cannot be proscribed from on high.  However, if we can step back for a moment, and take a long, many decades view, this could be possible over a few generations.

But, we have to start now.