Find more of Dr. Scharmer’s work at OttoScharmer.com, with the other sources mentioned in the resource section below. -- As you consider the ideas presented in this interview and practice permaculture, what it is it that you want to emerge? On the other side, what do you feel wants to happen?

Resources:
Otto Scharmer
Presencing Institute
Theory U Books
MITx u.Lab
Peter Senge
The Limits to Growth (Wikipedia)
Club of Rome
EdX
Transforming Capitalism Lab

We talk about the social side of permaculture and what we can do, as individuals and a community, to create boundaries that lead to deeper respect for ourselves and each other. To fight for something -- rather than against -- through small and slow solutions. The power we have as minority voices to create social change. The impact that being face-to-face with others can have in engaging with and resolving the issues facing our community and the broader world. This is a conversation about sitting with things that are often uncomfortable, but necessary for transforming the world we have into the one we want to see. Find out more about Rhonda and her work at permaculturedesignmagazine.com and shelteringhills.net. You’ll find links to those, and so much more, in the resource section of the show notes. 

Get in Touch
Leave a comment below.

Resources:
Permaculture Design Magazine
Sheltering Hills Design, LLC
Small and Slow-Solutions: IPC India 2017
Safer Spaces Agreement
Great Rivers and Lake Permaculture Institute
How to Conduct a Community Inventory (Transition US)
Sociocracy aka Dynamic Governance (Wikipedia)
Dynamic Governance: A New System for Better Decisions (Triple Pundit)
Restorative Justice Restorative Circles Permaculture and The Commons. Permaculture Design Magazine #103 (February 2017)
Radical Faeries
Why Mobile Technology Matters for the World’s Nomadic Peoples

During this interview we talk about natural building and designing for disasters, including the nature of and increase in these problems; the role of our ecological impacts on what is occurring; what we can do to prepare ourselves for these eventualities; a better definition for what we should call a disaster; what we can do personally and systemically to bring about preventative change so we can be proactive rather than reactive; and why we need to abandon the concept of sustainability. Quite a lot to cover, but all applicable to your daily permaculture practices. -- Oliver and I did have another conversation not long after recording this one, in which he recorded me for an episode of the Abundant Edge Podcast on how we can live regeneratively without abandoning society. -- For Patreon supporters, I’m giving away a copy of the book Oliver mentioned, The Hand-Sculpted House (Chelsea Green Publishing, 2002). Look for that in your feed on Wednesday, April 18, and I’ll draw the winner on Thursday, April 26. Not a Patreon supporter but want to enter? Go to Patreon.com/permaculturepodcast, select the reward level that suits your needs, and sign up today.

Get in Touch with the Show
Leave a comment below.

Resources:
Abundant Edge Abundant Edge Facebook Page (Company)
The Abundant Edge Facebook Page (Podcast)
Cob Cottage Company
Cob Cottage Company Apprenticeship
The Hand-Sculpted House (Chelsea Green Publishing, 2002)
How to live regeneratively without abandoning society with Scott Mann, - - where Oliver interviews me.
Why Cape Town is Running Out of Water, and Who’s Next (NatGeo)

Drawing on her years of experience in the landscape and her neighborhood, Amy shares what we can do to grow in small yards and gardens by considering our edges, looks at the difference we can make in our pantry if we grow for ourselves or in our wallet if we grow for market, and also shares her thoughts on what the future of permaculture holds as the ethics and principles are put into practice by people adapt these ideas to where they are and through their interests.

You can find out more about her and all she spoke about at tenthacrefarm.com/permaculturepodcast.

What do you think of what Amy shared with us today? How are you building a longer table instead of a higher fence? Let me know. Leave a comment below.

Resources: 
Tenth Acre Farm - Page for Permaculture Podcast listeners
Cincinnati Permaculture Institute

I’ve wanted to speak to Philip for a number of years, ever since first hearing him in an NPR piece about Green Mountain College. At the time I enjoyed the way he spoke about food and food issues, particularly the turn of phrase, “anonymous, pre-packaged meat” when referring to the way we are disconnected from the animals and plants we eat when purchasing them from a grocery store.

Our conversation begins with how he came to farming and teach at Green Mountain College and then move into the story of Mals, a farming community in Italy that pushed back against the ingress of modern industrial agriculture. Throughout the conversation you’ll find suggestions for what one can do to engage in local, state, or national political action.

If after listening to Philip you have questions or comments, leave a comment below and we can continue the conversation. 

Resources
A Precautionary Tale (Chelsea Green Publishing)
Toppling Goliath: How Mals became the first town in the world to outlaw pesticides
Brunnenburg Castle (Wiki)

Julie and the other families in the network practice holistic management to serve as an example to others that handling resources in this way is desirable and accessible. They help to train and demonstrate the manners and methods, while also providing consulting, monitoring, auditing, and incubating new entrepreneurs throughout the bioregion.

Find out more about Julie and her work with Tallgrass Network at tallgrassnetwork.com.

What do you think of this conversation with Julie? Can you see the potential for whole farm planning and Holistic Management in your permaculture design? Let me know your thoughts on this or anything else by leaving a comment below.

Resources
Tallgrass Network
Kansas Rural Network
Savory Institute
Holistic Management 3rd Edition by Allan Savory (Island Press)
Farmer Girl Meats
Mettenburg Farm
Byron Shelton
Brittany Cole Bush - Modern Day Urban Shepherdess

What they offer, though steeped in the Sonoran Desert, is something universal that you can replicate wherever you are to increase the understanding of seasonality, native plants and foraging, and also to grow the connections of your community through food.

Find out more about Desert Harvesters and Eat Mesquite and More!at Desert Harvesters.org.

If you’d like to find out more about their individual work, Brad is at harvestingrainwater.com and Jill is at lorenziniworks.com.

What I like about this interview is the way that Brad and Jill dig into the idea that supporting local habitat matters. If we care for the spaces around us, including those native edible plants and the local watershed, we can protect it. By tending those spaces, especially our neighborhood, we bring those plants that we want to grow and eat into our yards and gardens. Then, though we still forage among the plants when ripe and edible, we no longer have to go into the often fragile ecosystems where, in the words of Bob Theis, the land doesn’t need us to inflict ourselves on it. There is good land and growing space around most of us, whether that is a few pots on a windowsill, a planter box in a window, a rooftop garden, or a large sprawling garden.

I also like this idea of bringing things in because of my permaculture teachers' encouragement to encourage the non-use and expansion of Zone 5, the wilderness, wherever it exists, by bringing the other Zones inward. Tending a space, especially an urban one, with rare and interesting plants creates a new source to protect them. A refuge for this life, and our own.

If you’re interested in creating a habitat for native plants, once you have your copy of Eat Mesquite and More! I recommend picking up Dr. Doug Tallamy’s Bringing Nature Home. Using his years of experience as an entomologist and current research, he shows these plants that co-evolved with other life can have on supporting diversity in our backyard and bioregion. I also want to suggest another book worth reading, relating to what Brad shared about his experience teaching in Zimbabwe and the recognition that there are food forests all around us, and that is Save Three Live by the late Robert Rodale. This is an important book to read as a permaculture practitioner to understand the ways we can use our skills and knowledge to create an understanding of the abundance of nature and to create systems that insulate ourselves, our families, and our communities, from disasters.

If you have any questions or thoughts after listening to this conversation with Jill Lorenzini and Brad Lancaster of Desert Harvesters, leave a comment to get in touch.

Resources
Buy Eat Mesquite and More! direct from Desert Harvesters Desert Harvesters main page
Lush Cosmetics Charity Pot
Punch Woods Endowment Grant
The Future Eaters
Bringing Nature Home
Save Three Lives (Thriftbooks)

Related Interviews
Brad Lancaster - Water Harvesting 
Brad Lancaster - The Desert Harvesters

That core question arises from Karen’s life experiences with an aunt who farmed, continuing through the interviews she conducted with women farmers, including some folks, to my delight and surprise, who I’ve spoken with over the years. Taking those stories and lived moments, Karen shows the importance of showing up, participating, and most importantly listening. Though we may come from a particular place regarding agriculture and farming, we have a lot to learn from our friends, neighbors, and family, who picked up the plow before us.

Find out more about her and her work at kalacreative.net. There you can also purchase your own copy of The Woman Hobby Farmer and find more information about her upcoming documentary.

What I love about this conversation with Karen is the reality of what it means to farm, and the need to make the right decision of whether or not we want to. There is a physical toll that comes from farming. A dear friend of mine in the community is facing that knowledge right now and considering how to pass their farm along to someone else to manage so they can “move to town” while continuing to teach the next generation of farmers. An interim space for many of us is a garden. With a little bit of land and a little bit of time we can provide food and security for ourselves, but that discussion and those numbers are a conversation for a different episode. Suffice to say, we should take a stark look at whether or not deciding to start a farm is our best path.

Thankfully, as we discussed, Karen provides tools, worksheets, and stories, for helping to make that very serious choice. The other side, as mentioned, is that Yes, you can make a living at this and there is plenty of evidence for that possibility.

Some of those include past interviews with Jean-Martin Fortier and Joel Salatin, or what I’ve personally witnessed from Susana Lein or Holly Brown, but there is a price that comes with it. Many people who farm, by the numbers, do not bring in a great deal of financial income, that is a reality of this, especially as things scale up and more money is spent on tools, equipment, and labor, but there are other possibilities that arise by shifting in this direction.

Finally, my favorite insight into all of this is to show up and listen. Get yourself to farms. Find on-farm training sessions. Go and open your ears. Attend agricultural conferences if you can, and not just ones on organic or regenerative. See if your local extension office or land-grant university has meetings. Join The Grange, the full name of which, as I learned while writing this, is The National National Grange of the Order of Patrons of Husbandry. These folks are our allies.

Many of them, especially ones like The Grange, want to promote the science of agriculture and community resilience, ideas that should seem common to any permaculture practitioner. We have a lot to learn from them and to share. Show up. Participate. Be a part of your local community. You, and all of us, benefit from working together for the future that we want to see.

What did you think of this conversation with Karen? Does it give you a different perspective on what you do and don’t know about farming and agriculture? Whether you have answers to those or just more questions, I’m here to listen and give more insight if I’m able.

Leave a comment below and we can continue the conversation.

Resources
KalaCreative - Karen’s Website
The Woman Hobby Farmer
Wildlife in Your Garden
Southern Sustainable Agriculture Working Group
Midwest Organic and Sustainable Education Service
PASA Sustainable Agriculture
PA-Wagn Women
Food and Agriculture Network in Iowa National
Ladies Homestead Gathering

Related Interviews 
Holly Brown - Island Creek Farm 
Roundtable: Clear Creek Community - Community Building   
Roundtable: Clear Creek Community - Making Mead, Natural Building, and Permaculture Farming Roundtable: Clear Creek Community - Community and Traditions

From these experiences, he created the foundations for a pattern language, which he shares with us, that we can use to remove the restrictions placed upon permaculture designers, homeowners, and businesses that practice sustainability and build resilience.

Find out more about Avery and his work at ColoradoGreywater.com

I mentioned near the end of the conversation about some allies in our work to change the laws that restrict sustainable practices. The two you’ll find linked to in the show notes are Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund and National Community Rights Network. The National Community Rights Network also has state chapters in Colorado, New Hampshire, Ohio, Oregon, and Pennsylvania. If you’re involved in any kind of community engagement around the use of natural resources, definitely check out those two organizations.

I really appreciate people like Avery, or Adam Brock or Karryn Olson-Ramanujan, who continue to develop various pattern languages, drawing on the earlier work of Christopher Alexander and team in the book A Pattern Language. I find that pattern languages extend the core principle of permaculture design and apply this language and thought process to specific problems. Karryn works on issues for women in permaculture. Adam on how to create change, here and now.

For Avery, it is to be involved in the stakeholder process and politically engaged on the things we care about and lend our expertise, which lead him to his patterns. The ones he explicitly identified that we walked through in our conversation today were: allies on the inside, stakeholder cohesion, speaking legalese, CYA, people power, immutable force, and grit.

Have you been involved in the process of political change? Are there patterns you would add to this list?

Let me know by leaving a comment below.

Support the Podcast
Become an on-going Patreon subscriber
Make a one-time donation via PayPal

Resources
Avery Ecological Design
Colorado Greywater
Colorado Aquaponics
Boulder Permaculture
Sandy Cruz
High Altitude Permaculture
Living Routes (Now defunct. Reorganized as CAPE - Custom Academic Programs in Ecovillages) Auroville Ecovillage - India
Master of Ecological Design - San Francisco Institute of Architecture
Greywater Action
Harvesting Rainwater and Brad Lancaster

Allies in our Work for Change
Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund
National Community Rights Network

Related Interviews on Pattern Languages 
Adam Brock - Change Here Now with Adam Brock
Karry Olson - A Pattern Language for Women in Permaculture

That opening quote, from the paleontologist and science writer Stephen Jay Gould, is a running thread throughout this conversation as we talk about how early exposure to the beauty and bounty of the outdoors and nature can have a lifelong impact on our perception and understand the world as students, while also developing a sense of biophilia, a love for all life and connection. 

Visit our partner: Food Forest Card Game 

If Emma’s name or The Riverside Project sounds familiar, it’s because she and I have known each other and worked together for a number of years. Together we organized the Mid-Atlantic Permaculture Convergence in 2016 and 2017. She also hosted a podcast roundtable at The Riverside Project in 2015 which included Nicole Luttrell of Deeply Rooted Design, Jesse Wyner of Liberty Root Farm, Ashley Davis, of Meadowsweet Botanicals, and Diane Blust, of Chicory Hill Farm. I’ve included links to those, and my conversation with Patrick Shunney, one of the timber framers who built her outdoor space, and to Emma and her projects in the Resources section below. I’ve wanted to have Emma on the show for some time because I always enjoy the way she blends her passion and professionalism, so that every interaction we had, from first talking about building the timber frame pavilion, organizing MAPC, or standing on her porch one summer night talking about permaculture, left me with a better understanding of her personally, and of the work she cares so much about.

This conversation left me feeling better about some of the decisions I’ve made as a parent to expose my children to the natural world. Foraging for violets with my daughter. Letting my son dig in the dirt. The pair of them building forts, which turned into their own little village, from downed tree limbs, and only asking for help when they needed it. The three of us grabbing our water bottles and cameras to hit the trails and go hiking, interweaving their childhood with the experiences that, three decades ago, gave me a love for the natural world, as my large family gave me a love of people from the earliest moments of life. As an educator myself, I leave this interview comfortable knowing the evidence for the holistic impacts of environmental education and our direct connection to the relational world of nature, rather than the transactional one of tests, capital, and economics. Whether you home-school, teach in a school system or are a parent doing your best, my wish is that you’ll take this conversation with Emma to heart and spend more time outdoors, in wild places, with the children in your life. What are your thoughts on this episode? Whether you are a teacher or parent; interested in outdoor education or just want to learn more, I’d love to hear from you.

Leave a comment or, email: The Permaculture Podcast

I’m here to assist you on your journey. Wherever you are or wherever you go, I will walk beside you for as long as our paths converge. From here, the next episode is with Avery Ellis, of Colorado Aquaponics, to talk about gray water, aquaponics, and what we can do to change the laws and regulations that make sustainability and permaculture legally prohibitive. Until then, spend each day taking care of Earth, yourself, and spend some time in nature with the children of your community.

Resources Emma Huvos Riverside Nature School No Better Classroom Than Nature: Re-Imagining Early Childhood Education Balanced and Barefoot by Angela Hanscom Balanced and Barefoot Blog Forest Kindergarten (Wikipedia) What is Forest School? (Forest School Association) Forest School (learning style)  (Wikipedia) The Responsive Classroom Approach Sensory Processing Issues Explained More Time Outdoors May Reduce Kids’ Risk of Nearsightedness(American Academy of Ophthalmology) Sirius Community Sowing Solutions 1507: Timber Framing with Patrick Shunney 1541: The Riverside Project Round Table (Part 1) 1544: Home (The Riverside Project Round Table Part 2)