They then talk about Jacqueline’s experience building up Central Grazing Company, using a slow money loan, into a regional farm-to-consumer business. They close with her mission of using animals, agriculture, and business to create regenerative ecosystems.

Find out more about Jacqueline and her work at CentralGrazingCompany.com.

I’m thankful that Jacqueline joined David for this conversation because of the way a bit of entrepreneurial spirit, a small initial investment, and a good bit of effort can create an ethical company that aims for social and planetary good. We don’t have to follow the existing models or old ways of being. We can take inspiration to give it a shot, try something different, and maybe, just maybe, change our little piece of the world.

I also always enjoy the conversation that David leads because of his interest in the intersection between permaculture, the land, and business, from his years studying our design discipline while working professionally in sales. How he asked questions like whether or not Jacqueline would want to take her company and make it a national brand, or keep it regional. Would they become an umbrella for others to work under, or simply as models to create other regional farm- to-consumer supply chains. How she became involved with and used slow money to build up Central Grazing Company.

I compare that to how I would have spoken with Jacqueline, if I were in the host seat rather than David and how I imagine I would have focused more on her background and transitioning to farming, lessons learned from her first business, and how that influenced her ethical choices, like ensuring all the producers are animal welfare approved. David reminds me that we all have a voice and a perspective, and it is in dialog between ourselves, earth, other people, and the other-than-human, that a unique story arises. That by having the conversations, we elevate ourselves and the way we can communicate with one another, and live a richly rewarding life of interconnectedness.

If you are interested in starting a business or telling the stories of others, get in touch and continue the conversation by leaving a comment below.

Support The Podcast
Make a One-Time Donation
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Resources
Central Grazing Company
Central Grazing Company (Instagram)
Animal Welfare Approved
Savory Institute - Land to Market Program
Slow Money Institute
Slow Money NE Kansas

Related Interviews
Woody Tasch - Limits, Our Future, and Slow Money
Nancy Thellman - Slow Money with Nancy Thellman

He helps us navigate what to do in order to create our burial site; how to clear it with local officials, laws, and regulations; how to provide access in perpetuity; and how to legally and properly inter the deceased. From there we continue the conversation to talk about how we can prepare for our own end of life by creating an advanced directive; the options for green burial; the need for all of us to start having honest and open conversations about death, regardless of our age. We end with a series of listener questions.

Find out more about Michael at EcologiaDesign.com.

As I mentioned early in this episode, I see preparing for our own end and including our loved ones in those conversations early as essential to our work as permaculture practitioners, regardless of what level or degree you take your design to. If your focus is primarily on farm and land, then setting aside a place to hold the dead is essential.

If your design takes you beyond the landscape, then what ways can you start the conversation with family members, friends, and your community? Can you take the ideas here, of the wake that Michael held, and apply them where you are? Or do you have different cultural hallmarks that mark the transition from life, just there are ones for entering it?

I don’t know anyone for whom death and dying is an easy conversation, but if you have thoughts on this and would like to talk about them, or need some space for someone to listen as you grieve and seek closure, my door is always open.

Leave a comment below and we can continue the conversation. 

Resources
Ecologia Design
National Home Funeral Alliance
Crossings: Caring for own Own at Death
International End of Life Doula Association
Five Wishes - Aging with Dignity Advanced Directive
Death Cafe
Green Burial Council
Penn Forest Cemetery
Sparkroot Farm - Conservation Burial Ground in Moncure, North Carolina
Urban Death Project (Facebook)

That question provides the framework for Wilson Alvarez and his current work, The Reintegration Project, which examines the prehistoric ecosystem engineers of the Eastern United States as a way to understand how permaculture practitioners and rewilders can use biomimicry to replicate those influences and restore the landscape. To dig into this question and the solutions he’s found, Wilson shares his thoughts on harmonic disturbance; functional extinction; taxon vs. mechanical substitution as two different approaches to land management for conversation rewilding; and how to bolster the ecosystem by planning for correct disturbances of the correct size at the correct time. As one of my teachers, colleagues, and friends this interview with Wilson has less structure as we didn’t need an introduction to get started so we just started talking, with the interview beginning with an explanation of the idea of niche construction.

To find out more about Wilson and his work as a permaculture practitioner and rewilder, listen to our earlier interviews:
Restoring Eden with Wilson Alvarez and Ben Weiss
Listener Questions on Zone 4 Permaculture with Wilson Alvarez and Ben Weiss
Rewilding with Wilson Alvarez and Ben Weiss

I’d also like to say that for anyone in the Mid-Atlantic the Horn Farm Center is an incredible resource for anyone interested in Agriculture, Permaculture, and Rewilding. Jon Darby, who appeared in the first group discussion of the podcast many years ago (Part 1) (Part 2), is the education director there and focuses on offering classes in these areas, often with Wilson as a lead instructor. Check out the events page and see if there is anything might be of interest to you. -- My conversations with Wilson always restore some of my hope that we can achieve a number of our ecological, landscape, and management goals because of the way he provides practical, replicable advice on how to tackle the hard issues facing us.  He continually develops ways to face the difficult tasks of working on the edges to manage the landscape and to do so with simple tools. Though there are some ethical and legal issues we’ll probably need to discuss at some point before taking these practices to the required landscape scale, right now you can use the four ecosystems engineers that Wilson shared today -- the beaver, wolf, elephant, and wild human -- and look for similar prehistoric landscape changers in your area and how they impacted the land and begin applying the mechanical disturbances they did, now, where you are. If, after listening to this episode you dive into the research of your local ecological engineers, I'd love to hear what you find and the ways they created disturbances. Email: The Permaculture Podcast Write: The Permaculture Podcast The Permaculture Podcast From here the next interview is my conversation with Michael Judd on Natural Burials.

Patreon Exclusives
Wilson Alvarez - Practicing Permaculture On The Edge

Other Interviews on The Permaculture Podcast with Wilson Alvarez
Rewilding with Wilson Alvarez and Ben Weiss
Listener Questions on Zone 4 Permaculture with Wilson Alvarez and Ben Weiss
Restoring Eden with Wilson Alvarez and Ben Weiss

Resources
Horn Farm Center
Donate to Horn Farm Center and support The Reintegration Project
The Forest Man of India (YouTube)
Jadav Payeng (The Forest Man of India - Wikipedia)
The Biggest Estate on Earth by Bill Gammage
Bringing Nature Home by Doug Tallamy
Last Child in the Woods by Richard Louv

Related Interviews
Beyond the War on Invasive Species (Tao Orion)
Nomad Seed Project (Zach Elfers)

Highlighted Episodes for 2017
Joel Salatin on Farming,
Experience, and Mastery
Permaculture in Perspective: Fertile Edges with Maddy Harland
Mastering Cheesemaking with Gianaclis Caldwell
Holistic Goat Care with Gianaclis Caldwell
Drawing Down Carbon: Eric Toensmeier on Agroforestry and Climate Change
Change Here Now with Adam Brock
Revising Permaculture with David Holmgren
Peace, Permaculture, and The Gift with Kai Sawyer
The Art of Frugal Hedonism

My Favorite Episode Climate Change and The Path Ahead

Though those are some of my highlights, what were your favorite episodes of 2017?
What are some of the episode of the show you keep going back to, over and over again?
Who are some of your favorite guests?

Needs of the Podcast
One of the requirements for living in the gift is to be open about one’s needs. At this moment, the show runs an ongoing deficit of around $600 a month from being comfortable to take care of the regular expenses of the show, as well as my own healthcare. This does not reach the point of a living wage, but covering that discrepancy would make a huge difference. I’m asking for your help to find ways to cover that gap.

- Asking the audience at the start of the show to directly support the podcast by going to paypal.me/permaculturepodcast or dropping something in the mail.
- Continuing to grow Patreon. If you are a listener, that’s the best way to do so, as you can see what I receive and get your own rewards in return. Find out more at patreon.com/permaculturepodcast
- Specific fundraisers of various kinds, which you’ll hear about throughout the year.
- Finding more partners to work with, as you’ve heard some of them recently such as North Spore Mushroom Company or The Food Forest Card Game. If you know of anyone who would benefit from this kind of relationship, please let me know or have them contact me for more information. I’m also open to any suggestions you might have, as this show continues as a full-time endeavor, changing lives and Earth every day. Let’s keep that going.

Contact the Show Email: The Permaculture Podcast

Find out more about Maddy Harland and the magazine at permaculturemagazine.co.uk.

You can order a copy of her book, Fertile Edges, from PermanentPublications.co.uk if you are in the United Kingdom, or ChelseaGreen.com if you are in the United States.

I enjoyed my time with Maddy because of her long history in the permaculture movement and getting to hear, directly, about her role as a curator of so much useful information for our community. Permaculture continues to exist and grow because of her efforts and the team at Permaculture Magazine. Generations of permaculture practitioners came to the movement by picking up a copy at the newsstand. That includes me.

Though I found permaculture in the 90s when I started exploring sustainability, primitive skills, and rewilding in the mid-2000s an issue of Permaculture Magazine was in a stack of periodicals gifted to me so that I could see what was happening in the world. That inspired me to continue my search for a Permaculture Design Course, and lead me to Susquehanna Permaculture, Ben Weiss, and Dillon Cruz. At the end of that class, I started this show. Simply put, this podcast exists because of Maddy’s work with the magazine; editing so many great books, like the ones from Patrick Whitefield; and co-founding Permanent Publications which made those books available to the world. Her work provides me and other permaculture podcasters, video producers, bloggers, and authors -- those members of our community who were often not part of those first or second waves of permaculture education and outreach -- with a foundation to search out the voices, farms, designers, and scientists to expand and push the edges of permaculture.

Maddy continues that legacy of curation and inspiration with Fertile Edges, a collection of her wisdom that provides a view into the past, present, and future of Permaculture. If you are new to movement or were one of Bill Mollison’s first students,  this is something well worth having. Pick up a copy today. 

After listening to this interview, where do you see the permaculture movement right now? Where do you see our future heading? Let me know. Leave a comment below.

Support the Podcast:
Become a Patreon Member
Make a one-time donation

Resources
Maddy Harland
Permaculture Magazine
Permanent Publications

Fertile Edges
Permanent Publications (U.K.)
Chelsea Green (U.S.)

Permaculture in a Nutshell
Permanent Publications (U.K.)
Chelsea Green (U.S.)

Earth Care Manual
Permanent Publications (U.K.)
Chelsea Green (U.S.)

People and Permaculture
Permanent Publications (U.K.)
Chelsea Green (U.S)

UK Permaculture Association
Patrick Whitefield (Wiki)
Graham Bell
Chris Dixon (UK Permaculture Association)
Chris Marsh (UK Permaculture Association)
Max Lindegger - Crystal Waters
Looby Macnamara
Aranya (Permanent Publications)
Charles Dowding
Stephanie Hafferty
Albert Bates (Peaksurfer)
Mayan Mountain Research Farm - Christopher Nesbitt
Polly Higgins - Eradicating Ecocide

He and others in those early days created the many direct actions now used by activists and protestors all around the world including tree sitting or chaining oneself to industrial equipment. From there he moves to his current work with the Rainforest Information Centre and the Los Cedros Reserve to save the rainforests of Ecuador.

Find out more about Los Cedros at https://reservaloscedros.org/, and the Rainforest Information Center at rainforestinformationcentre.org.

Everyone should get involved in politics. If we leave it only to those who are attracted to it, we get exactly the current situation.”

My own personal perspective and why I was interested in David’s interview with John rests closer to that second answer: we should all be involved in politics and action. As a permaculture practitioner, my focus continues to be on the philosophical underpinnings of this holistic systems-thinking approach paired with the social, economic, and, yes, political change we can create through intentional design. Though I see the world through this lens of political and social work, I also understand that we should engage in the activities we are called to. We only have so much time in our lives to work on the issues that matter to us. If you have a limited interest in politics but live in a democratic society with elections, vote.

If you want to go a step further and help preserve rainforests, get involved with the Rainforest Information Centre. If you feel working on, or in, politics holds the most possibility for you to affect change, become a lawyer, run for office, or work to enact policy changes at your municipal, state, province, national, or the international level.

One of the things I love most about permaculture is the breadth of possibilities available to us. Use your knowledge and ability to create the world you want to live in. While you’re doing that, know that there are tens of thousands of others doing the same thing, in their own way, alongside you.

If there is any way I can help connect you to the resources you need, answer your question, or help you get involved, leave a comment below.

Resources:
Save the Los Cedros Reserve Petition
Los Cedros Reserve (Reserva Los Cedros) - Jose DeCoux
Rainforest Information Centre
Rainforest Action Network
Earth First! Worldwide
Earth First! Journal
Dave Foreman (Wiki)
Mike Roselle (Wiki)
Randy Hayes (Foundation Earth biography)
Friends of the Earth
Gary Snyder (Poetry Foundation)
AusAID - Australia's Aid Program
Work That Reconnects Network - Joanna Macy

 As an overview of the global state of carbon farming, Eric also discusses the reality of what we can do, through dietary practices and engaging in our own food production, to create change. For those of you inclined towards policy and top-down approaches, you’ll hear plenty of possibilities of how you can move the conversation in your community and with your legislators.

Find out more about Eric at perennialsolutions.org, and The Carbon Farming Solution at ChelseaGreen.com.  

Given the range of topics touched on regarding climate change, the resources below include not only those that Eric mentioned, but also a number of previous interviews with Dr. Laura Jackson, Keefe Keeley of The Savanna Institute, small-scale farmers Lee and Dave O’Neill at Radical Roots, and the market farmer Jean-Martin Fortier, as well as Jerome Osentowski of Central Rocky Mountain Permaculture. In the conversation with Jerome, he even touches on the impacts he’s seeing of climate change after his many years in the high altitude environment of Colorado where CRMPI calls home, and the focus of his decades of work on greenhouses.

As I put together the notes for this show, I’m left thinking about how to move forward in a meat-reduced world and have questions I need to answer. How viable is meat on leftovers? What systems do we need to implement to capture food waste so it gets to animals instead of the refuse bin? I should have expected to be left with more questions after speaking with Eric, so am going to keep digging into this and will share more as I find it. I would like to have Eric back some time to continue the conversation about permaculture and food production on marginal land.

If you have questions about this or anything else we covered in today’s conversation, leave a comment below. 

Resources
The Carbon Farming Solution Project Drawdown
Perennial Solutions
The Center for Agroforestry at the University of Missouri Agroforestry at Virginia Tech
IPCC - Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Trees on Farms by RJ Zomer, et al. (PDF)
Savanna Institute
Steve Solomon - Gardening When It Counts
John Jeavons - Grow Biointensive
Legal Pathways to Carbon_Neutral Agriculture by Peter Lehner and Nathan Rosenberg (PDF)
Diet for a Small Planet

Related Interviews 
Dr. Laura Jackson - Modern Agricultural Systems 
Keefe Keeley - The Savanna Institute 
Jean-Martin Fortier - The Market Gardener 
Dave and Lee O'Neill - Radical Roots Farm 
Jerome Osentowski - The Forest Garden Greenhouse

For that reason, I’ve had an interest in helping you get up to date on the latest recurring permaculture periodicals. So, today, Robyn Rosenfeldt sits down to talk about her Australian-produced, but globally available, magazine: PIP. She designed this from the ground up to be a complete sensory experience that covers a wide range of practices in each issue. Similarly, she shares with us a variety of thoughts on permaculture in Australia, what it’s like to distill down practical advice to the length of an article, why a magazine means so much to her as a way to share this information, and how you can contact her if you would like to contribute your words to an upcoming issue.

Find out more about PIP Magazine, and pick up Issue #9, at pipmagazine.com.au.

I’d like to thank Robyn for taking the time to sit down and share with us her experiences of creating a magazine and her process of putting together the familiar yet unique PIP. Her work and the conversation today are a reminder of how, with the will and little bit of knowledge, we can make something new. Robyn took her experience as a photographer and the publishing industry to launch a magazine. I took some time spent as a radio DJ and a decade in IT, to create this podcast.

What skills and know-how do you have that you could forge together to bring something unique into the world? If you’d like to get in touch to talk with me about your ideas, projects, or abilities, leave a comment below.

As we embody our values and live ever differently, how do we change the communities we are a part of as we become ever more apart from them?

This is one of many thoughts I have as we enter this conversation with Kai Sawyer, as we look at his life as a practitioner embracing peace, permaculture, and the gift economy to bring about social and cultural change in Japan.

Find out more about Kai Sawyer and his work at: Tokyo Urban Permaculture Living Permaculture

Something Kai wanted me to mention, that didn’t make it into our conversation is the ongoing impact and questions as a result of the Fukushima Daiichi power plant meltdown. Something I didn’t know, that Kai shared in his follow-up email, is that Fukushima prefecture was one of the leading organic food growing regions in Japan.

What happens then, to the organic or natural farmer who carefully and with a lot of love, grew beautiful soil for decades that is now contaminated with cesium 134 and 137? Who will buy their produce? Who will help them rebuild their entire life?

Also in Fukushima prefecture was an innovative permaculture project at Iitate village that sought to redesign the community using permaculture to reverse the process of rural depopulation, to keep residents in this rural location rather than heading to the cities. To Kai’s knowledge, it is the only initiative of the kind in Japan, one where an entire village was a permaculture design site. As you might imagine, the proximity to the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant and the ways the wind blew, high levels of radiation fell on the village, and their entire village was evacuated by the government. A project to preserve the community, destroyed by a single disaster, responded to with modern practices now so ingrained they seem traditional and the only path forward.

How could this situation have been different if more communities in Japan were transformed by the whole systems design of permaculture and a chance to the cultural and social structures and consciousness? As we grow as practitioners, how can we change these ways of thinking and organizing in our own communities and, in turn, change the way they are governed and inhabited? If you have thoughts on this or anything else Kai and I spoke about, I’d love to hear from you.

Leave a comment below so we can continue the conversation. 

Resources
Tokyo Urban Permaculture
Living Permaculture
Peace and Permaculture Dojo Tour (Spring 2017) (YouTube)
The Center for Nonviolent Communication Nonviolent Communication (Wiki)
Moved By Love, the Memoirs of Vinoba Bhave (Read Online at MKGhandi.org)
Bullock's Permaculture Homestead
Humanure Handbook - Joe Jenkins
Iitate, Fukushima, a village scale permaculture project in Japan, evacuated due to the events at the Fukushima Daiichi Power Plants.
Living On The Edge of Fukushima

We also share our own experiences of warm memories with friends and families playing games, both as children and adults, and how we can use games in the classroom. On this last point, I give a quick overview of one of my favorite Permaculture Design Course games: design island. Karl then shares how he lives his ethics by making inexpensive options available for teachers, giving back to his local community, and offsets the impacts of the production of these cards, and his interest in reforestation.

After the conversation with Karl, I include a short conversation with Jason Godesky on his insight into the intersection of games and education.

Find out more about Karl and Food Forest Card Game at: Food Forest Card Game

What I like about games in a permaculture context is the social atmosphere games create for us to work with one another, in a cooperative game, or to compete in a friendly way with no or low stakes involved. These interactions provide a slow and small solution to get to know others and foster the long-term relationships necessary to build our tribe or create a community of others interested in the same kinds of activities. Though they may not engage in permaculture directly, we need everyone to join us to create the social, cultural, and political change to create the world we want to live in. One of us can make a huge difference, but together we increase our diversity and the number of connections and possibilities.

If there is any way I can help you find an interesting game for your classroom, a game night, or a party, let me know. Also, I’d like your feedback on this two guest, single subject episode. Was the addition of Jason’s voice helpful in understanding Karl’s approach to The Food Forest Card game?

Leave a comment or get in touch with me directly: Email: The Permaculture Podcast Or drop something in the post: The Permaculture Podcast The Permaculture Podcast From here, for Patreon supporters, check your Patreon feed at patreon.com/permaculturepodcast/posts on Wednesday, November 1, as I’m giving away a deck of Food Forest Card Game cards to supporters. There is also another giveaway still active for Wayne Weiseman, Daniel Halsey, and Bryce Ruddock’s Integrated Forest Gardening: The Complete Guide to Polycultures and Plant Guilds in Permaculture Systems. The next interview, out ad-free on November 7 for Patreon supporters and November 10 via the website, iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever you find your podcasts, is Kai Sawyer who joins me to talk about permaculture in Japan and how he navigates living in the gift economy. Until then, spend each day creating the world you want to live in by taking care of Earth, yourself, and playing games with your community.

Resources From Karl Treen
Food Forest Card Game
Food Forest Card Game (Facebook)
Permaculture Providence (Meetup)
Permaculture Providence (Facebook)
Eden Reforestation Projects
Food Forest Card Game Thread (Permies.com)
Cities in the Wilderness

From Jason Godesky
The Fifth World
The Way of the Human Being by Calvin Luther Martin (Yale University Press)
Vincent Baker - Lumpley Games
Thoughty - Brie Sheldon (Interviews with Game Designers)
Spiel des Jahres (Game Award - English Website)
Mensa Select Winning Games
Pandemic Legacy Season 2 (Z-Man Games)

Organizations and Individuals Researching the Impact of Games
The RPG Research Project
Sarah Lynne Bowman, PhD