We pick up after taking a short break from recording part 1 and open with a discussion on permaculture as a movement. I would like to thank Emma Huvos for setting up this event, inviting the panelists, and hosting at her farm. Visit TheRiversideProject.com to learn more about her work to move the farm more towards permaculture, and to check the calendar for any upcoming events.

Leaving this round table and getting to sit down with everyone and talk about permaculture at the potluck afterward left me reminded of the trip to visit with Eric Puro and other members of ThePOOSH in Kentucky and the need to spend time with people in order to create intimacy and community. For that day in West Virginia, as we all sat around and talked, we bonded through the common interest in permaculture and creating the world made possible by systemic design. This idea of building trust, intimacy, and community I’ve been digging into for the past several months is the only way I see that we can create the opportunities necessary to face the issues that lead humanity ever closer to the crisis. Solutions exist to all the technical problems we face over the next century including climate change, energy, food, and transportation. All of it. Every last one. The only thing we lack, however, is the social and political capital to make it happen.

To change all of that, will you join me? Wherever you are at, whatever your choices may be for yourself and your descendants, starting today will you live with the intent to broaden your community and move closer to creating the world you want to live in? If you are politically minded, will you run for office? If you work in the public sector, will you guide decisions and policies so they come from a permaculture perspective? If you own a business will you move your company structure and rules to align with the ethics of permaculture? In your day-to-day life will you work on reducing the impacts of your lifestyle and become an example for others?

We all have a role in creating a bountiful world.

If there is any way I can assist you in taking action in your own life, let me know by leaving a comment below.

You can find out more about his work at Verdenergia.org.

Stepping away from this conversation I’m left with three reminders of how to change our lives and accomplish our goals. Those are: living with intent, living where we are at, and living in community. Living with intent means to actively make choices about our actions and what we bring into. Now, more than ever, each of us and our decisions impact not only ourselves, but also the descendants of humanity and all other life on the planet. Living where you are at means inhabiting both the physical sense of place, and getting to know the people and space that you call home, but also about developing self-awareness. We must know our needs and wants in order to live well where we are, and to be kind to ourselves and others for each of us are at a different stage of the journey, and that trip is our own to take. Living with community means connecting with others to rebuild what we’ve lost as a culture. We arrived in this moment through the passage of time, and so did the story of our society. Meet other like-minded folks. Tell stories. Expand your Zone 1 and Zone 2 social permaculture circles, and get real with others. Dig deep. Get to know others so you can trust one another whatever the situation. 

Is there any way I can assist you on your path? Let me know by leaving a comment below.

Until the next time, spend each day transitioning to the life you want to live, while creating the world you want to live in, by taking care of Earth, yourself, and each other.

This episode is a conversation with Jason Godesky, creator of The Fifth World Role Playing Game, recorded in person at the Save Against Fear convention.

You can find out more about Jason and the game at TheFifthWorld.com.

As you may have noticed in our closing we ran out of time in our session, and did not get to address all the listener questions. I emailed those to Jason, who kindly responded.

Q1: "Composting toilets?”

Jason: “Do you mean to ask if I have one? No. I think that reusing what’s already built usually beats building something new; that, combined with my bioregional commitments, led me to go in with my brother to buy the house that we grew up in. It’s a fairly traditional suburban setting, and I haven’t made much headway with repurposing much of it yet. Or do you mean to ask what I think of composting toilets? My opinion on them is the same as herb spirals, hugelkultur, and just about all of the other “cool” permaculture techniques: they’re great — in the right context. There’s several kinds of design that figure prominently in my life, especially web design, game design, and permaculture design. Across them all, I’ve become convinced that design itself comes down to really thinking through what you want to accomplish here, in this specific context, and picking the principles and techniques that focus on those goals. In each of those fields, I see people who look for the short-cut of just picking from the pre-approved list of “best practices,” but no matter how many other people have employed a thing successfully elsewhere, no one has ever applied it in your specific circumstances before. So, to bring all of that back down to earth for a moment, I love composting toilets, and they’ll probably fit in well with most permaculture designs, but the world has never seen a truly one-size-fits-all solution, and probably never will. Not even composting toilets.”

Q2: "Wow! I love RPGing. It looks like a magic free world? Is there any technology above stone age? What mechanic is used (D20, 3d6, fate)? Will it be available on drive thru RPG? Will it ever be print? Is it in beta and can my group help test?”

Jason:“The Fifth World takes place in our world, four hundred years from now, so it has all of the magic that our world has. I take that to mean a great deal of magic, though none of the Vancian fireballs that a wizard from Dungeons & Dragons would recognize. In “Becoming Animal,” David Abram writes of his apprenticeship to a Nepalese magician who taught him how to shapeshift — a long regimen of training his awareness that involved nothing supernatural, and yet ended in astonishing magic. I wonder about the ways that magicians could use altered states of consciousness to heighten “thin-slicing” (as Malcolm Gladwell called it) to go through mystical experiences that synthesize vast amounts of data, allowing them to make better decisions, which they would experience as mystical journeys and encounters (and really, what makes my neurological explanation any more real than their first-hand experience?). Hunter-gatherers learn the calls of different animals well enough to mimic them and to understand the responses they get in return, so that we can really only deny the conclusion that they speak with animals out of spite. It seems less false to me to call such things “magic” than to call them anything else. I think that an interruption to our industrial infrastructure would not leave much room for re-starting it. The first time around, we could find sources of metal near the surface. We used those up as we made tools to dig deeper for more. Similarly, we used fuel that we could find easily to build machines that could dig deeper to get more. We’ve used up the sources of metal and fuel that we can obtain easily from the surface. We dig deeper for them because we can no longer find them more easily. So if we interrupt that process, we won’t find the metals or fuels we need to get to the depths where now find metals and fuels. It will take geological ages to push them back up to the surface. That restriction definitely limits the kinds of technology available in the Fifth World. I wouldn’t call it stone age, exactly. For example, you can’t find much flint easily now, either, but you can find plenty of broken glass, and you can knap that into knives, spearheads, and arrowheads quite effectively, so rather that stone, they use colored glass from discarded bottles. Mostly, though, I prefer to focus on their priorities. As a society, we generally believe that technology improves our lives and will ultimately save us from our problems, so we have become excellent at producing technology, and have neglected the techniques for building social bonds and deep relationships. In the Fifth World, people generally believe that social bonds and deep relationships will improve their lives and ultimately save them from their problems, so they spend as much time and energy focused on that as we spend focused on technology. The game has its own rules. I firmly believe that good game design means focusing on a game’s specific purpose. Rolling dice, for instance, works really well in a game that keeps revolving around the question, “Can I do it?” When you have the dice in your hand, you wonder what will come up, if you can roll high enough to overcome the obstacle. For an animist game like the Fifth World, though, this doesn’t help, because whether or not you can overcome someone (and generally someone, rather than something) doesn’t usually matter nearly as much as whether or not you can connect with that person. That led me to using a deck of cards. Each time you draw a card, you don’t ask, “Can I do it?” but “What will I discover?” This, I think, makes cards a great way to focus on exploration. In this case, I tried to use that to focus on exploring both physical space and social space. The Fifth World doesn’t have a game master (GM), like many other RPGs do. Instead, the players share the roles that a GM would normally fill. Each player ha a number of awareness points, which they use to ask questions. They choose one of the other players to answer the question, and as we answer these questions, we begin to discover the Fifth World together. This has an interesting side effect: NPC’s can seem to have personalities and minds all their own. We all build off of what we’ve already established together, but we might have different ideas of what follows naturally from any given point, so the same NPC can potentially surprise everyone at the table at one point or another. The Fifth World presents an open source game with an open source setting. That means that the most canonical version will always exist online at thefifthworld.com/rpg. That said, I recognize how much it can help to have a book in your hand. That also gets into my business plan, and how I hope to sustain this so I can afford to put more time into it. I want to present a free PDF packet with everything in it. I’m also hoping to produce a scout book [https://www.scoutbooks.com/], aiming at a price point of $10 or less, and possibly expansions published in the same manner. Since it uses cards, I’m working on putting a custom card set on DriveThruCards. I’d like to create a better set with custom artwork for each card, but I don’t have enough art for that yet. I’d also like to make a more elaborate art book, in the style of Dinotopia by James Gurney or Gnomes by Will Huygen and Rien Poortvliet. Both of those, however, will require a great deal more art. I have a Patreon set up if you’d like to help me with that at https://patreon.com/jefgodesky. The game still sits in a public beta phase, so I’d love it if you could playtest it and send me your thoughts. You can find the full rules and the link to the feedback form at https://thefifthworld.com/wiki/rpg”

If you have more questions for Jason about the game, feel free to let me know because I look forward to recording another interview with him in the future, as well as a live-play of The Fifth World so you can hear what the experience of collaborative storytelling is like.

If you have any questions for me, or there is a way I can assist you on your path, let me know by leaving a comment below.

Until the next time spend each day creating the world you want to live through your stories and your actions by taking care of Earth, your self and each other.

Together we shared a meal and sat as an extended family for the evening before beginning to pass the microphones from one another up and down the table. That lead to the conversation you are about to hear.

If you want to find out more, I recommend contacting Eric Puro of ThePOOSH.org who can get you in touch with others in the area. When they get the community website completed expect to find links shared through Facebook, Twitter, and all the other forums for connecting with the podcast. A standing invitation remains for me to go back down to the area and currently I have plans developing for my next trip. I want to record an extended interview with Susana Lein of Salamander Springs Farm, who in addition to speaking with us here, appeared in the film Inhabit. Ziggy and April from The Year of Mud also live in the area, and I plan to tour their space and speak with them on record during this next trip. Ziggy and I traded email message during the lead up to my trip to Kentucky, and I found out he traveled north to Ben Falk’s place while I journeyed south, but we both intend for our paths to cross soon.

Revisiting this material and spending time in Clear Creek showed the possibilities we create when living with one another, rather than living near one another. Once our basic needs of food, shelter, clothing, and human interaction get met space opens up to explore the many roles that each individual fills and their relationships with others. Time existed for conversations that, as Philip mentioned in the round table, go deep. That dialog and space allow hard problems to get worked out, without the need for a judicial system. Explicit rules become unnecessary to keep and maintain the community when those involved know, trust, and care about one another. That reinforced for me the need that each of us get right with ourselves and right with others so we can come to truly live in community and rely on our fellows so when a crisis hits people come together to create a plan and take action, rather than pay lip service or do nothing. That gave me a better understanding of what I personally require to create an intentional community, and how to make it work.

We build the kind of intimacy and trust that, at the moment, I only have with a handful of people. Moving forward in my own life, once the current dust settles and I land on my feet again, I want to adopt that idea of Sunday coffee and keep my door open for whoever wants to come by and talk and get to know one another better. To create a standing invitation for whoever wants to break bread with me on a scheduled day of the week. A tradition I once participated in called Soup Night saw a bunch of people get together over a few pots of soup with bread and other foods to spend time together. Though we all came from different backgrounds we met around the table, around the food, and talked. Sometimes late into the night. Though I last participated in Soup Night nearly a decade ago, some people I met there count among those I could live within the community. Many people I know now, I don’t know well enough to feel comfortable doing so.

Building community does not require everyone living there to drink beer together and hang out every night of the week, but we should have the trust and respect to know that if anything happened to one or the other we would be there to see their basic needs get met. That the intention and desire to create community come from a place of authenticity and concern for others. With how far so many of us live from one another and how little time we seem to have because of the many priorities and requirements of this modern life we live, we need a shift. To give up some of those time sinks. To make building community a priority. To get to know one another with depth and understanding. Food. Drink. Celebration. These ways, these rituals, we can come together around.

How would you bring people to your table and into your community? I’d love to hear from you. Leave a comment below.

This work forms the basis for what you will hear today, though if you are familiar with the normal format of the show, this one is a bit different. Listening to Michael I got caught up in what he was sharing from his earliest interests and love of nature, to his permaculture practices, and then on to the ways that he fundraises and works in a number of east African nations to construct the permaculture based schools. The way he tells stories, with asides and reconnections back to the main thread, is how my family told stories and the way I do, in a somewhat non-linear fashion, when not sitting behind a scripted podcast episode. As a result this is Michael telling his story with no interruption or break from me until nearly an hour in, so settle in, relax, and listen to how we can all have a greater impact than we might imagine, just by tuning in, getting engaged, and taking action. You can find out more about Michael at Seven-Ravens.com. There you will also find links to the IndieGoGo campaign for the teacher school in Tanzania and to donate directly to his efforts.

Michael’s work reminded of something that Jack Spirko said, in my interview with him sometime ago, that permaculture, compared to many other movements, is a do-acracy. We get fired up and passionate about something and then run with it and make it happen. Along the way we use the principles to learn from our mistakes and keep refining and developing, improving ourselves and what we are doing. What was shared with us in this episode reflects that from the very beginning of Michael’s story up until his current work. Something else that I like about Michael as an example for what is possible is that he self-financed initially. He had an idea and found ways to make it work and then once he reached a point where he needed more assistance, he continued to build his networks and raise the funds needed to get things done. This wasn’t an idea waiting for resources before beginning, he got started and then found what he needed to keep going.

If you were in Michael’s shoes, saw this need, a place where you could fill a niche, how would you take your first step forward? What would you do to bring your vision, your dream, into the world?
What would you do, that is unique to you, that would make a difference?

Whatever steps you would take, I would like to hear from you. To know what you are working with, and what you are doing to make it happen. Together we might even make it easier to get and keep your plans and project going.

Leave a comment below.

Until the next time, take care of the earth, your self, and each other.

Michael with his wife Heidi, and their three daughters, Abbie, Cleo, & Quinn.

For those of you who watched the video I posted a week ago, there is an additional 20 minutes of material here that wasn’t part of the visual recording, as the camera battery died and I couldn’t swap it out at the time, but the audio feed continued rolling along.
If you didn’t watch the video, no problem, just settle in and relax as you can hear all that and more in this episode.

During his address Eric shares with us the concept of Vernacular Architecture, what it means to truly build with local sustainable materials and the decisions involved in that process, and invites us all to be active in our role as builders. He also shares information about the non-profit, ThePOOSH.org, he and other members run, and how we can get involved.

The Q&A that rounds out his speech touches on the new community he and members building codes and personal decisions, creating relationships in order to keep disputes from arising, and how to explore and find solutions to problems of living sustainably, such as lighting your home. I’d like to thank Photographer John for allowing me to borrow the equipment I used to make this recording, and the video possible. I’d also like to thank every listener who contributes to the show. You allow me to keep the show transmitting out into the ether, and to document events like Radicle Gathering.

I was fortunate enough to not only attend Radicle to hear Eric’s speech, but also to spend time living in community with him and others for several days in Clear Creek ahead of the time spent at Radicle.

In that experience I got to see and begin to understand what it means to be in community with others, and the importance of an invitation into something. I was invited to stay with them, but then invited to help build with them. During Radicle I joined Eric, Loren, Satu, Adam, and my friend, The Other Eric (who joined me for the journey to Kentucky), to build the the foundation for the cob oven. Coming from a background where the attitude was “do it right or don’t do it at all,” I was initially hesitant to join in collecting materials or the construction, instead watching from the side and asking questions. Then I was told that the only way I’ll learn is to do and that anything that is done can be undone so hop in. It was a rewarding experience and as a result I collected and stacked stones, dug for sandy soil, and had some deep discussions about creating outside the bounds of a schedule driven, just in time, forever faster system. That made Eric’s keynote resonate even more strongly with me, and is why I titled this episode We Can All Be Builders. Each of the members of ThePOOSH, and others unrelated to that work but who live in Clear Creek, Kentucky, opened the door and joined in at every step of the way to support and grow not only the projects, but also the people involved, including myself. Those people in that place allowed a space for me to let go of my rational mind and begin to feel, in a way uncoupled from the facts and figures of daily life, and was a reminder of the value of emotions and, as Dave Jacke said, what they can tell us about what is going on in our lives, in the moment. There is information in those emotions. We need to be free of that rational reductionist side from time to time in order that we have the perspective that can pair the irrational with the reductionist knowledge we gain through education and formal experiences. Taking those disparate parts and build a new story that is not one or the other, not the weight of the past or the activities of the present or the dreams of the future, but a synthesis of all the moving parts into something unique. Something novel. Something new the world has never seen before. In that space, that mindset, we can find the thoughts that are different. Those ideas can get us out of the situations we find ourselves in. We can be creative in our use of permaculture as a decisions making process and apply it to whatever situation we find ourselves in. Like talking to a building inspector about the structure we built, how it was built, and why it is safe in an earthquake zone, even though we are not engineers. To be good with our neighbors and learn that sharing strawberries or garlic or a beer or wine, can create a better relationship, but that we still have the option to build a fence if what we do is onerous to others and there is no way to resolve it otherwise. As permaculture practitioners we have all the tools to create an abundant world, now all we need are the skills and the space within our particular niche to make it happen.

If I can help you with that, get in touch with me by leaving a comment below.

Until the next time we meet, take care of Earth, your self, and each other.

We take a broad view approach to this idea and move from the underpinnings of her perspective, stemming from heavy research that is well documented in the book, to the idea of restoration and how many modern techniques depend heavily on the chemical weapons of our war on plants: herbicides. Wrapping up Tao answers a series of listener questions. If you have questions after listening to this interview, get in touch with me. I’d like to have Tao back on the show in the near future so we can follow up on many of the ideas presented here. Email or call in with what you would like to know more about. The Permaculture Podcast or Finally, before we begin, this show is listener supported. Make a one time contribution using the donate link on the right hand side of the main page or become a recurring monthly patron at Patreon.

You can find Tao's book, Beyond the War on Invasive Species at ChelseaGreen.com. If you use this link to purchase this book, a portion of the coverprice goes towards supporting this show. Something that I like very much about her book is how well researched it is, with copious endnotes. Whether or not you agree with Tao’s perspective on invasive species, there is no question where her ideas and evidence arose from. As someone who wants to see more scientific literacy and research in permaculture literature, I see this book as an entry into a new model for how to proceed with writing material for the community as well as a broader audience, filling a niche between a pop-science book and a peer reviewed journal entry. From there, what stood out for me in this conversation with Tao was her long-term, conscious approach to our interactions and decision making processes that extends our perspective forward, and backward, in time and space to consider not only what got us to this moment, but also where things can go into the future. The smooth cordgrass and being able to imagine that kind of ecological change based on the environment being constantly in state of transition. With that is the broadscale view of how to impact the problems that arise by digging down into the issue and creating larger, elegant solution. We are drawn out to ask bigger questions. Far too often, from my own personal experiences, it is easy to drill into the details without doing a larger analysis. We make decisions on the micro scale, rather than pulling out our macro-scope. A zone analysis is done of a single divisible space, be that land or waterway, and track the influences on it, but don’t step back and do that same analysis for the watershed or biome where that space is located. As we look to interface with larger problems and bring systems thinking to bear upon it, then we must step back and look at the systems that are at play, which brings us back to not looking at just the landscape, but also the social and economic structures. In doing so we can make choices that use the principles of permaculture to satisfy the ethics in a way that can have incredibly far reaching and lasting change. If there is anyway I can assist you in the problems and issues you face, get in touch. Email: The Permaculture Podcast From here, when this episode goes live I will be on my way to Kentucky for Radicle Gathering. If you are in the area and want to swing by the event starts Thursday August 20 and runs through Sunday August 23, 2015. Tickets for the event are very reasonable, and there is camping allowed on-site so you can stay the whole weekend and learn about earth skills and permaculture, plus get to listen to great music each night. Find out more at RadicleGathering.com Until the next time, take care of Earth, yourself, and each other.

he United States continues to wrestle with issues of policing and impartiality under the law. The increase in recording of police interactions with citizens has drawn attention to issues that were spoken about for many years, but rarely witnessed: the overuse of force, and falsification of reports that support the word of the officer. This has lead for a call to use technology, such as body cameras, to create greater accountability for officers. Examining incarceration and conviction rates show that blacks, latinos, and native americans punished disproportionately, compared to whites. Being poor can also increase the difficulty of having a positive outcome under the law when faced with fines, bail, or court costs. To frame that another way, as a white middle-class male I have substantially less concern during my interactions with police, whatever the case may be. As someone with a modest income and an existing support structure of friends and family who have financial means, I’m more likely to make bail should I ever be arrested for some reason, and not get stuck in jail, unconvicted, while awaiting charges or a trial. I don’t see the world as fair, or that everyone is created equally, but I do believe in equal treatment under the law. With so many systemic issues that currently exist in society it raises the question if technological solutions and incarceration are best ways to handle justice in America, or elsewhere. After speaking with Melanie I am convinced that restorative justice holds the keys to unlocking a more just, fair, and peaceful society. As permaculture practitioners we can use this idea into our daily lives, and introduce the concept as we work on social and economic permaculture. Doing so raises awareness and makes the practice of restorative justice more well known. As we stop the war on invasive species, let’s also stop the war on our fellow human beings.

Original Release Show Notes: My guest for this episode is Melanie G. Snyder, author of Grace Goes to Prison who works on issues of restorative justice and prisoner re-entry. You can find out more information about her and her work at www.melaniegsnyder.com. One of the core ideas of her work is “prison as a last resort” and that forms the theme for this interview, and how restorative justice, and rehabilitation and treatment programs impact in a positive way the people and communities who use these options. I see this conversation as an important way for permaculture practitioners to apply what we know, especially among those with sociology, psychology, law, or criminal justice backgrounds, to engage the system that exists and create a better world that values all the people who are a part of it. This very candid conversation touches on a number of stories of people from my life impacted by the criminal justice system. Melanie’s work and this conversation matter to me, and from speaking with many other people it matters to them, too, because of their loved ones who could have been saved if other options existed. Listen if you know anyone who has ever had a negative interaction with the law and consider how implementing restorative justice and re-entry programs in your community help create a better world. Work like Melanie’s is important for breaking us out of the mold of current thinking and shows that other systems are possible. We don’t live in an unchangeable machine, we’re not cogs or sprockets. We are part of a dynamic living system and we can change it to be more kind, more peaceful, and more beneficial to all.

The Four Questions of Restorative Justive

1. Who has been harmed by a crime?
2. What are their needs?
3. Who should be accountable for addressing the needs and harms that were caused by the crime?
4. What can be done to address the harm?

Resources
Melanie G. Snyder
The Center for Community
Peacemaking
Lancaster County RMO
Restorative Justice Online
National Association of Community and Restorative Justice
The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander

Melanie's TedX Talk: Breaking Out of Prison Thinking

How can I help you create a better world? Let me know by leaving a comment below.

My guest for this episode is Toby Hemenway, author of the longstanding favorite book on ecological design Gaia’s Garden. His next blockbuster The Permaculture City, was recently released by Chelsea Green. This latest volume, focusing on urban landscapes, forms the basis for the conversation today. We work our way through the book and along the way discuss permaculture as a decision making system, and the importance of what permaculture practitioners have, for so long, called the invisible structures: our social and economic systems. For patreon supporters, stick around after the end of the interview, as there is a piece I cut from the piece for broadcast that I included at the end for you to hear. Before we begin, I’d like to thank everyone who had help to make this show a reality. If not for every one of the listener supporters I wouldn’t be able to keep going, as all of this work is made possible by you. If you’ve thought about giving, do so now. If you would like to be part of the members who are part of the monthly program, become a Patreon supporter and receive a number of benefits, including early access to shows and subscriber only podcasts. You can find out more about Toby's work at patternliteracy.com. His latest book, The Permaculture City, is currently available through Chelsea Green. If you choose to order use the link above and help support the podcast at the same time. Before we get to my thoughts, a class announcement. October 2 - 11, 2015 Dave Jacke is teaching a 9 day intensive Forest Garden Design Course at Feathered Pipe Ranch, near Helena Montana. This is the first time in three years this course has been offered in the United States. The all inclusive class allows students to learn how to mimic forest ecosystems that include a number of valuable characteristics including stability and resilience in a changing world. As the recent interviews with Dave this have expressed, you can also expect this course to explore the human side of design including the social and economic elements, as discussed with Toby as part of today’s interview. Participants will the opportunity to design multiple forest gardens, including one for the course site, as well as another for the 6th Ward Forest Garden Park, as discussed with Caroline and Jesse during the conversation with them on Social System Design. Find out more at: https://www.insideedgedesign.com/upcoming-events.html Now then, my thoughts at the moment. To me this book and the interview you just heard are vital to changing the conversation about permaculture away from just the landscape and growing food, as these are problems that are technically solved. We know how to raise up plants from seed, cutting, or graft. We understand the techniques to use in a wide variety of situations in any climate, even if that means making modifications to the land through ponds or swales, or creating physical structures such as greenhouses or stone walls as thermal mass. Conventional and organic agriculture have a lot of information for us to pull from, as do the rapidly growing fields of agro-forestry and agro-ecology. Where things go sideways is in reaching a larger audience with these ideas, not just in mainstream culture, but also in the permaculture community at large. The landscape is the focus and gets many of us stuck there. Myself and, as you heard, Toby as well. In the beginning this is the place it all starts. Plants. Animals. Food. Fuel. Fiber. Medicine. They form our materials and techniques and yields. These are all easy to see and engage in. But now, 40 years since the beginning we need to go back and dig through Mollison’s big black book of permaculture and remember Chapter 14: Strategies for an Alternative Nation. We need to learn how to build and work in community with one another. Now that the thorny pioneers have blazed a trail into the depths of the jungles, plains, and cities, and there set down roots, we have flourished in the shade of their experience and the work that came before us long enough. Now the specialists can come in. The growers, the builders, the organizers, and the communicators, to fill in the gaps and expand to reach all aspects of human life. We have the potential for permanent human agriculture, now let’s work on building that permanent human culture, and retain the aspects of civilization that matter to us. Thankfully we can do so using the same system of design as those who came before us, and show others how to create a different world. We can tell the stories of how what will come can be different from what has been and what is. Together, though climate change and other obstacles may seem insurmountable, we can bring prosperity and abundance to all life on earth. We can get the next story right and, with it, get the future right. I am hopeful for what will happen next, as is a recurring theme in my work as of late on engaging what was once seen as invisible. It was quite an experience to hear what Toby had to say on this subject, given his many years of experience and the place of respect he holds in the community. The Permaculture City is a fundamental resource that I recommend everyone who is listening read. If this interview is your first exposure to permaculture and you liked Toby’s perspective get a copy of Gaia’s Garden, read it, and then read The Permaculture City. If you’re someone who finds their thoughts continually revolving around the land, read The Permaculture City and see the broader scope of decision making that permaculture can help us engage in. For those of you already working on issues of social and economic systems, especially in the urban environment, pick up a copy and know that you are not alone in your work and there are many people stepping out from what was to create a new now. Along the way, wherever you go, I am here to lend you a hand. To walk beside you until such time as our paths part. If I can be of service to you in any way, get in touch. Email: The Permaculture Podcast Call: Skype: permaculturepodcast You can also send me a letter, as I do so love receiving mail in the post. The Permaculture Podcast The Permaculture Podcast As we draw this to a close, on Wednesday, August 19, 2015, I’m going to be attending a potluck in Berea, Kentucky for an evening discussion about permaculture, being organized by Michael Beck of The POOSH. Though short notice, once I have a flier for that event I’ll pass it around if you are in the area and able to attend. That event kicks off my time in Kentucky, as I’ll be at Radicle Gathering, in Bowling Green, August 20 - 23, 2015. Come out and join me, and members of The POOSH, for a weekend of workshops, entertainment, and community building. Tickets are currently on-sale and the entire weekend is only $25 for adults, those 16 and under get in for free. My deepest thanks to Meg Harris for being part of the team organizing this event and inviting myself, Eric Puro, and all the other presenters and musicians for this weekend. It’s going to be a blast. Find out more at RadicleGathering.com. With that, so comes the end of the episode. There is a short episode planned for Monday, August 10. Until then spend each day creating a better world, the world you want to live in, by taking care of earth, your self, and each other.