Excepting Misters Holmgren, Mollison, and Hemenway, Dave Jacke and Eric Toensmeier were two of the authors whose names were well known in my local permaculture community, and I added their two-volume set to my library as early as I could afford to. Dave was one of the first guests I wanted to have on after relaunching the show, but it took me this long to finally get our schedules to mesh and make it happen. In the end, I think it was worth it, even with some of the audio issues we encountered along the way. He was open and honest, leading to a great deal of candor in the conversation, so much so that I had to edit out some things both of us said that were better left as a personal exchange, not for airing in public. You still might be surprised by what we both agreed to leave in. We begin, as always, with his background, and move into a discussion of his work and permaculture, including a critique of the material, how we can build more sustainable systems by engaging our social structures and intentionally designing them, and wrap with some listener questions and his final thoughts. During the conversation we touched on the idea of being impeccable with your word. That phrase “Be Impeccable with Your Word” comes from the book The Four Agreements by Miguel Ruiz. I don't know how you'd classify this book, as it's cataloged under Philosophy, Mental Health, and Social Science, but the four ideas include not only be impeccable with your word, but also Don't Take Anything Personally, Don't Make Assumptions, and Always Do Your Best. They sound pretty straightforward, but the author spends time working through each of them and how they relate to freeing ourselves to be able to take care of ourselves and use that centered personal space to begin building the social structures we need to build to keep systems working. Check a copy out from your library, give it a read, and let me know what you think. Also, check out Dave's website at edibleforestgardens.com for more information, including worksheets and errata available for download, as well as upcoming events. 

Resource
Edible Forest Gardens Dave Jacke's Website. You can contact Dave and order a copy of his books. 

Our conversation brings together the interviews with Arthur Haines, Sam Thayer, Wilson Alvarez, and Ben Weiss about our use of the wild lands, and interacting with that edge between the world built by man, the natural world, and the interface between permaculture and wilderness. If you are relatively new to the show, I'd recommend listening to those past episodes before settling in to this time with Mr. Pilarski. One of the things that stood out to me from this conversation was Mr. Pilarski's imperative about taking a little place around us and fixing it up. That as each of us do that, the world becomes a better place. I think of David Holmgren and his desire for us to build working models and to spread permaculture by showing people that it works. Of Sam Thayer or Arthur Haines telling us to get out there and go forage. Of the work Wilson and Ben are doing to tend the wild as a way to show a working example of not only how to live within the ethics of permaculture and our interactions with the world that supports us, but continue civilization and the things we like about it in the process, while earning a viable income. I feel like we're on the cusp of transition, that as much as going on in the world, as each of us embodies the change we want, I'm beginning to see it. But, maybe that's just my bias because I like this world we live in and the possibilities of it all. What possibilities do you dream about? Which ones are you taking action on right now? I'd love to hear from you. You can reach me via email: The Permaculture Podcast, or by . Resources: Michael Pilarski and Inland Northwest Permaculture Guild Past Interviews: Arthur Haines Sam Thayer Wilson Alvarez and Ben Weiss

Resources:
Tending the Wild by M. Kat Anderson
Native Science by Gregory Cajete
Outdoor Survival Skills by Larry Dean Olsen

My guest for this episode is Dan Allen, who writes about issues of energy, food, and building resilience at the community level at Resilience.org. I first heard about Mr. Allen during the interview with Keith Johnson. After reading some of Dan's articles, I wanted to interview him as a followup to the recently released conversation with Nicole Foss. Thankfully, Dan was up for it and replied quickly to set things up. During this conversation we talk about his background as a scientist, his work as a teacher and farmer, why resilience matters, and what we can do to build it. I follow this up with some thoughts on all this. What stands out to me from this conversation is that need to build local pockets of resilience, and reach out to people who have an interest in what we are already doing. Dan does that with his students, through the community gardens, and his farm stand. As practitioners of permaculture, we can do that by building functional systems that show people examples that work, and share our surplus as it arises to connect with others. Also, expressed in some of the interviews recently, and also in upcoming ones, is the need to move beyond the garden or the backyard, and to design our support structures and community. To expand our networks. To observe the place where we live, the people there, and meet them where they're at. To find the people already in line with our goals and designs, and help them build their own. To make small changes, to engage, without overwhelming. To show people what is possible by investing in what matters to you, rather than continuing on the take, make, waste path. I admit it's not easy, but together, we can make it happen. I'll be here along the way. Will you join me? Resources: Dan Allen at Resilience.org

You can find his personal experience working with wild foods in his books, The Forager's Harvest and Nature's Garden. During this conversation we talk about how Sam came to be regarded as an expert on foraging. Where you can find more information on foraging, including live events to attend in the United States and high quality reference materials. Take some time to answer listener questions. And talk about mimicking natural systems to create productive environments that replicate the services of nature, while better meeting human needs.

Resources:
Sam Thayer
The Forager's Harvest
Nature's Garden
Edible Wild Plants: Wild Foods from Dirt to Plate
Wildfood Weekend
North Carolina Wildfood Weekend
Wildfood Summit
The Midwest Wild Harvest Festival

As always, you're guaranteed a whirlwind ride once the interview gets rolling. From those various topics, and the others we touch on in-between, I left our conversation with a simple, yet powerful, takeaway. We all have roles to fill in building the world we want to see, and we should work with those who are already on the path, or willing to join us, to make that happen. Time is short and shouldn't waste the precious moments we have.

Resources:
Keith Johnson
Permaculture Activist (Magazine Site)
Permaculture Activist (Facebook Page)
Alternet
Common Dreams
The Community Environmental Legal Defense Fund
Daily Kos
Dan Allen at Resilience.org
Democracy Now
Dmitry Orlov
Think Progress
Truthdig
Truthout

We touch on both of these in the conversation, leaning more towards the sustainable Ag side of things, then move on to cover the impacts of commodity based monocropping, and how the agricultural system in the United States is entrenched by many forces, from the political policies of national and state government, to the farmers, and also choices made by consumers in the grocery store. Within this are the seeds of why changing the way we grow food is so dang hard, but also that there is change on the way. One of the things we talked about in this episode was increasing the organic matter of the soil by 1% and the impacts that has on water retention and absorption. I've always wondered what that means. How much is 1%? How much does that weigh relative to a given area, such as an acre? Thankfully, our local agricultural newspaper, Lancaster Farming, continues to publish more information on sustainable agriculture, and recently published an article that answered this question. To increase the organic matter of an acre by 1%, you need around 40 tons of finished rotted organics, such as compost, to be worked into the ground. To get that 40 tons requires 80 to 100 tons of source material, such as the browns and greens from our yard or garden scraps. Thinking about all the bags of grass I've collected and worked into my compost, or that a cubic yard of compost weighs around 1,000 pounds, or half of a ton, just how much biomass is requires to increase the organic matter over an acre of ground. And, to go around with these numbers a bit, and that an acre of land is 43,560 square feet, and 40 tons is 80,000 lbs, we need to add just under 2lbs of organic matter for each square foot of land, or around 9kg per square meter. It boggles my mind to think about what we'd need to do in order to restore organic matter, fertility, and water retention and absorption to the most degraded soils. But, that's only as I imagine doing it all at once. What this does for me as a permaculture practitioner is to remember the ethics, so that I care for the earth. Use the principles to slow down my thinking, to use slow and small solutions of incremental change so I don't burn out, and can adjust my design moving forward. To value renewable resources, provides a strategy of using biological processes to create the change. Wanting to create no waste, leads me to a strategy of recycling materials on-site. From there, come my techniques. What biological processes can I use? If the soil is hard and compacted, I can use deep rooting radishes, such as daikon, to penetrate down into the earth and break it up. Living in a temperate climate, leaving them in the ground they'll freeze over winter, and rot in the spring, directly introducing organic vegetation into the soil where it's needed, rather than digging it in. Tender cover crops, that easily winter kill, especially leguminous ones, can be planted in Fall, and then mowed in the Spring, leaving the roots in the ground, again increasing organic matter, where as the tops can be collected and added to the compost. That compost, going back to the idea of recycling waste on-site, can then be dug into Zone 1 garden beds, with other materials as a potting mix to grow seedlings, placed in the holes of new perennial plantings, or even spread on the ground as a mulch itself, or underneath other mulches. These are all things I could do where I live, because it's temperate, with consistent killing temperatures over the winter, down to single degrees Fahrenheit or around -15 degrees Celsius. Would these work for you? Maybe, maybe not. As I'm often reminded, it depends. And that's why I focus on the ethics, and then the principles, as my foundational understanding of permaculture. These are the ideas from which all else descend.

Resources:
Dr. Laura Jackson
Lancaster Farming

I first heard about Nicole after I was sent a link to an interview she recorded with James Howard Kunstler of the Kunstler Cast.

As she talks about finance, a big world I won't pretend to understand, as well as energy decline, something I haven't covered in any great detail, this interview seemed inevitable. After playing tag for a few months while she's been on her whirlwind tour, we finally had a chance to connect. During the interview, she covers finance and energy contraction in-depth. I say that she does this because these topics are outside my normal purview, and I didn't see a reason to interject my own take very often. I'm thankful for her thorough understanding of her position, her articulate explanation of the what and why on these topics, and being gracious with me while I played catch-up during the conversation. Just another reason why I'm a podcaster and don't do live interviews. I'm thankful that Nicole is still hopeful about the future. Even with these looming issues, we still have time to take action to build resiliency and prepare for these, and other, eventualities. The path to do so isn't hard, but does require a different outlook, and investment in our daily lives and personal stability. Permaculture provides many of the tools necessary to design and plan a way forward. She also wanted me to let you know that she's looking to do a whirlwind tour around the United States later this year. If you'd like her to stop by your town for a talk, contact her and you can discuss the possibility.

You can contact Nicole through her website at: www.theautomaticearth.com

My guest for this episode is Paul Garrett, a retired teacher, who spent the last 20 years working as an environmental educator beginning in his elementary school classes, and then in the community. In addition to his work continuing to teach in various ways, he also coordinates a high school environmental club, an adult environmental club, and in coordinating local green businesses. I've known Paul for several years, and we've been playing tag since I started the show about sitting down for an interview, but our schedules never quite aligned. Thankfully, we finally made it happen. One of the reasons I like Paul, beyond his incredibly gracious personality and deep passion for what his work, is that he's taking action to help people build a better world. When speakers come to his environmental club meetings they are focused on sharing information that people can use to make a change. He's done so much in these areas, he was recently awarded the Harrisburg Volunteer Citizen of the Year award. Paul's work is another model, or pattern if you will, for others to replicate in their own community. Whether or not you are actively practicing permaculture, or just want to use the skills you currently have to make a difference, there are always places to apply your knowledge and fill a niche. One that stands out from this interview is for teachers, and how they can get more environmental education, including permaculture, into schools. Whether that's directly as a class or indirectly through after school programs, the options abound. Like my interview with Larry Korn, I don't have anything else to add. What Paul shares speaks for itself. Resources: Green-Cause

My guest for this episode is Ann Stone, an education program associate with Penn State University who coordinates the Pennsylvania Women's Agriculture Network, an organization dedicated to connecting women farmers of all experience levels for networking and education opportunities. During this interview Ann and I discuss what this program is, how it came to be, what the ongoing efforts are to improve and expand the offerings, and what you can do to try and create a similar organization in your area. This program, and others like it, is another example of how we can come together to network and coordinate our efforts. If you are interested in creating a similar organization in your area, you can contact Ann for more information you can find that on her page at Penn State. Coming up next next week, on August 13th, is Paul Garrett speaking about Environmental Education and Outreach. After that is Nicole Foss, and we talk about the next two potential crises: economic and energy contraction. Rounding out August is Dr. Laura Jackson, with a detailed conversation about mono-crop agriculture and restoration ecology. And Keith Johnson gets us started for the month of September. [strong]Resources[/strong]: Ann Stone's Contact Information Pennsylvania Women's Agriculture Network