Our conversation is based on his forthcoming book The Gandhian Iceberg: A Nonviolence Manifesto for the Age of the Great Turning. We talk about nonviolence and the three parts to the Gandhian model: self-purification, constructive programs, and satyagraha. I became aware of Chris and his work through conversations with Ethan Hughes, who gave me a rough copy of The Gandhian Iceberg.

Through that, and time spent at The Possibility Alliance, meeting with members of the Catholic Worker Movement, and those practicing nonviolence and building egalitarian communities, a light went off in my thoughts on how nonviolence is a required component of creating the world espoused by permaculture. That lead to this conversation with Chris on how to move from a place of anger and fear, to one of compassion and love. As discussions emerge about how the third ethic of permaculture is the least discussed and most confusing to understand and implement, nonviolence and the Gandhian model provide a way to return this ethic to a proper place in our practice.

You can contact Chris at moorebackman@gmail.com and find more about his work via the links in the resource section in the show notes. Creating a more bountiful world requires peace and nonviolence.

To continue to exist under old methods and modes that create feelings of scarcity and result in violence and oppression don’t fit within the ethics of permaculture. A new revolution is required, lead by the practice self-purification, constructive programs, and satyagraha. Should you choose to embrace this path, and I suggest you explore it further at the very least, there are additional resources in the notes for this episode that include links to the Metta Center for Nonviolence, a series of free books on nonviolence from the Albert Einstein Institute, and further articles on satyagraha and the power of nonviolence.

Along the way if I can assist you, wherever you are, get in touch by leaving a comment below.

Resources
Chris’s Email: moorebackman (at) gmail.com
Bringing Down the New Jim Crow
Chris’s Articles at Truth-Out
Dr. Michael Nagler, author of The Search for a Nonviolent Future Martin Luther King
The Inconvenient Hero by Vincent Harding
Brene Brown
Gene Sharp
Michael Brown
“The Presence Process” Charles Eisenstein

Peace Projects
Be the Change Reno, Nevada
The New Community Project Harrisonburg, Virginia
Canticle Farm Oakland, California

Additional Resources
Nonviolence: Working Definitions (Metta Center for Nonviolence)
Satyagraha (Wikipedia)
Non-violence, the appropriate and effective response to human conflicts
Collection of free books on nonviolence (Albert Einstein Institute)
The Power of Nonviolence
/r/nonviolence (reddit)

My guests for this episode are Nate Kleinman of the Experimental Farm Network, Paul Glover the founder of Philadelphia Orchard Project, Robyn Mello of Philadelphia Orchard Project, and Kirtrina Baxter of Public Interest Law Center, in this first of the Philadelphia Round Table conversations, recorded earlier this year at Repair the World.

During the discussion, they share with us ways in which cities provided numerous opportunities for permaculture practitioners, as well as visions of why working in urban spaces is important to the future of creating an abundant, regenerative world. Before we begin, a few thanks.

The first is to Dirk McGurk, for being the man with a plan who organized this event. It’s been a while since I was in Philly, and Photographer John and I had a good time wandering around the neighborhood before the event and spending time with everyone who came out.

The second is to Jamie Bright of Chakra5 Studios, out of Burlington, Vermont, for letting me demo the microphones that were used in this recording.

Finally, I’d like to thank you, the listener for your ongoing and continued support of this show through your donations, sharing of links with friends and family, and taking the time to call, email, or write in letting me know how this work helps you. Together we make a difference. Thank you.

I’m grateful for what the panelists share with us today because of the unique role that cities can play in our lives. Growing up on a rural dead-end street, the beginning migration to the exurbs of the small city of Hagerstown, Maryland, where I called home throughout my childhood, there were always large connected lawns, with houses fully inhabited. My neighbors didn’t move until they sold a house, and there were no vacant lots. Land there, as with where I now call home, was expensive and rarely available. Farms butted up against well manicured lawns and no one I knew at the time grew a garden.

Yet in Philadelphia and other cities like it, is an opportunity to walk short distances to find many neighbors and open spaces, and to find old plants, and breed new ones, adapted to the spaces more and more people will inhabit in the future, and to care for the people around us; to understand the historical and cultural underpinnings of issues like access to land, systemic racism, and oppression so that together we can mitigate those vectors on cultural and individual abundance.

Along the way if I can assist you, wherever you call home and whatever leg of the journey you are on, get in touch by leaving a comment below.

Resources
Nate Kleinman nathankleinman@gmail.com 215-264-0446
The Experimental Farm Network
Experimental Farm Network (Facebook)
Experiemental Farm Network (Instagram)

Paul Glover
PaulGlover.org
Citizen Planners Los
Angeles a History of the Future
Patch Adams

Robyn Mello robyn@phillyorchards.org 215-571-9506
Philadelphia Orchard Project
Beardfest.net

Kirtrina Baxter kbaxter@pilcop.org
Public Interest Law Center
Garden Justice Legal Initiative
Grounded In Philly
Black Permaculture Network
Black Permaculture Network (Facebook)

Other
Permies United (Facebook)
Occupy Vacant Lots
Soil Generation
Clear Creek Schoolhouse

This leads us to talk about the Ecological Landscape Immersion program taught at PSC, the role of mentoring, the results of Miriam Volat at The Farm School, and we eventually touch on the shortcomings of a Permaculture Design Course for anyone wanting to practice as a professional.

As I continue to navigate social permaculture and living in community, the work of Erik, his colleagues, and others like him are important for creating the next generation of landscape oriented permaculture practitioners. The Permaculture Skills Center offers a variety of trainings focused on creating a career for students whether that involves ecologically focused landscaping, regenerative agriculture, or permaculture education. If you are near Sebastopol, California and considering any of these path, these programs are definitely worth investigation. Permaculture Artisans and The Permaculture Skills Center continue to raise the bar of what it means to practice permaculture professionally.

Find out more about Erik and his work at permacultureartisans.com and the numerous education offerings, as well as their own blog and podcast, at permacultureskillscenter.org.

Along the way if I can assist you, wherever you call home and whatever leg of the journey you are on, get in touch by leaving a comment below.

Resources:
Permaculture Skills Center
Permaculture Artisans
Clear Creek Schoolhouse

I’ve known Robyn for many years, after meeting in Philadelphia during a presentation given by Peter Bane at the Awbury Arboretum alongside the executive director of POP, Phil Forsyth. Along the way we’ve kept in touch as I continue to follow her work in Urban Permaculture. Not only is Robyn an amazing permaculturist, she is also a musician with The Radicans and an organizer for BeardFest.

Find out more about Robyn and her permaculture work at PhillyOrchards.org.

Resources:
Philadelphia Orchard Project
The Radicans
BeardFest

We met several years ago in Philadelphia, before she joined Philadelphia Orchard Project, when Peter Bane came to the city to speak about his work and The Permaculture Handbook, and kept in touch as I followed what she was doing in and around the city.

In addition to her work with POP, Robyn is an awesome musician with The Radicans, an organizers of BeardFest, a music, art, and sustainability festival, and an all around amazing permaculture practitioner. During the conversation we talk about the start of the project, what the organization does, including outreach beyond planting orchards, and Robyn gives a long list of plants that included beyond just trees. The resulting installations have more in common with food forests than what you might imagine when first hearing the word orchard.

Find out more about Robyn and Philadelphia Orchard Project at PhillyOrchards.org. You can also listen to her with The Radicans, and checkout BeardFest via the links below.

As I mention in the opening with Robyn, this is just an introduction to Philadelphia Orchard Project and Ms. Mello. We have a longer, more in-depth conversation that will follow this one in a few weeks. In the meantime, if you are in the area, check out POP and see about getting involved.

If along the way there is any way I can be of assistance, my door remains open for any listener, professional, novice, or in-between. You can reach me and continue the conversation by leaving a comment below. 

Resources:
Philadelphia Orchard Project
The Radicans
BeardFest

This episode serves as an introduction to these ideas, and Nati’s background, as, similar to the conversation with Rhamis Kent and Islam, there is a great deal of ground to cover before getting to the conversation proper, because my understanding of Judaism, is very limited and I pepper the conversation with questions to get myself up to speed.

Regardless of your background, however, this is a good place to begin if understanding the cultural underpinnings for the rituals, customs, and beliefs that make up this modern world are part of your permaculture practice. This promises to be the start of something that leads to more practical practices stemming from Jewish teachings.

You can find out more about Nati and his work at Jewish Farm School.

Coming out of this, Nati’s closing notes grab hold of me and connect the thread of the faiths of Abraham—Judaism, Christianity, and Islam—is the creation story from Genesis. That we come from the earth, made from the dirt, or clay. Those few inches of topsoil that cover the land allow crops to grow and animals to feed. Though the earth is covered by so much water and there are traditions of fisherman, it is still Earth from which we arise in these traditions; faiths that encompass more than half the world’s population.

From that it seems a natural fit, as a non-theologian, to tend to where we come from, whatever may happen in the next life. What we have is this world, this Eden, given to each of us by virtue of our birth. We are shepherds. Gardeners. Tenders of the wild.

If there is any way I can help you to explore these ideas of faith and earth care, get in touch. 

Continue the conversation by leaving a comment below. 

Resources:
Jewish Farm School
Institute for Social Ecology
The Teva Learning Center
Adamah Farm
Greener Partners
Eden Village Camp
The Shalom Center (Rabbi Arthur Waskow)

Along with this, we look at the impact that we can have on positive outcomes by taking personal responsibility for ourselves and understanding our individual roles as part of the problem. We close with David sharing five ways in which human systems differ from natural systems which we should consider as permaculture practitioners. If you work with any kind of system involving people, yourself included, this is an episode to kick your feet up, take notes from, and then give me a call so we can talk about it. There’s a technical, heady, yet accessible conversation ahead.

You can find out more about David and his work at appliedsystemsthinking.com. You can find out more about his book there, or at the site for the publisher, Chelsea Green.

After speaking with David there were a lot of pieces that struck a chord with me, but two in particular that I keep turning back to are regard governing versus espoused values, and the need for personal responsibility. Our governing and espoused values have the space between them, something Ethan Hughes refers to as the integrity gap, and this exists for individuals and organizations as well as systems. On reflection this shouldn’t seem surprising, but how often do we think about that gap? Do you ever consider the impact that that space between desires expressed and actual activity has on your life and the choices you make? For a long time, I didn’t. Doing so involves concentrated effort. Thinking this way, seeing the big pictures, requires serious intent initially until it becomes a habit. Once normalized into our daily practice it turns from ongoing moment-to-moment consideration to require periodic re-evaluation to ensure that we don’t fall into a lull once the pressure stops, as Peter mentioned, or allow old habits to creep back in. We become the guard at the gate of our thinking, taking responsibility for how those thoughts lead to action. Responsibility is something that Bill Mollison implores us to have in The Designers’ Manual, where he writes:

"The only ethical decision is to take responsibility for our own existence and that of our children. Make it now." (Emphsasis in original)

This Bill calls The Prime Directive of Permaculture. Though it speaks to ethical actions, it is on page one of the big black book of permaculture, coming before the ethics that we commonly think of, before discussing any principles. This is what one of the founders of permaculture opens his seminal work with. That we must make this decision now is in bold, and speaks not to just this moment, but also to the future. Our children. Though we might fall into individualistic perspectives, I also read this as a collective call to action. To take responsibility for our own existence, but that our and own reaches out to our community, of our genetic or adopted descendants, but also of those who live in our neighborhoods. The future generations that call a place home with us, in the homes down the street or across town that connects us.



There is plenty of talk about the other ethical entreatments, such as Earth care, or people care, and debate of what exactly the third ethic is in the current era, but I don’t hear this prime directive in discussion very often. Let’s talk about it more. In thinking about responsibility and what taking hold of it for our existence and that of our children would look like, I don’t have an answer for any life but my own. If we start talking about what this looks like for ourselves, we can start to find more answers and more solutions.

So, what does personal responsibility mean for you? Have you recognized how you are a part of the problem? What works? What doesn’t? Let me know, I’d love to hear from you. Continue the conversation by leaving a comment below.

Resources:
Applied Systems Thinking (David’s Site)
Systems Thinking for Social Change
Chelsea Green Publishing

 During the conversation today, we talk about his many years of building and consulting on the construction of greenhouses. At his site in Basalt, Colorado, this includes creating local greenhouse environments that allow the growing of citrus, and hold temperatures at a minimum temperature of 55 degrees year-round. As a permaculture practitioner, this stems from multiple systems, but one active method that Jerome has developed is his climate battery, the principles and functions of which he shares with us, and further details of which are in his book. Whether you have an interest in gardening, greenhouses, or appropriate technology, you’ll enjoy hearing Jerome share his experiences and knowledge.

You can find out more about Jerome, his work, and book at the Central Rocky Mountain Permaculture website, CRMPI.org.

As I mentioned during this conversation, I owe a lot of my permaculture education to what Jerome and the team at CRMPI have done over the years because that is where, as I remember, Ben Weiss trained before teaching me. If you are looking for a Permaculture Design Course or to study professional practices, you’d be hard-pressed not to study there if you can make it. As part of the work for this show, as I said to Jerome, I’m interested in visiting sometime to learn more, we’ll see what happens with that. For anyone interested in starting a small business, whether permaculture or otherwise, there is something to be said for the ongoing adaption and stick-to-it-iveness that Jerome and CRMPI have gone through over the years to keep operating. Rebuilding the greenhouse after losing it in the fire. Operating multiple businesses to provide financial income and redundancy. Trying different things to see what works. What fits for that environment, physically, socially, and metaphorically. I also like that he is planning for the succession of CRMPI and the other businesses so that this work can go on. Not just for another season, or another month, but for decades to come. A reminder to think long term, beyond our own lives, and to flourishing future generations.

If there is any way I can help you to explore the possibilities of your local community, prepare for a bountiful future, or grow your business or permaculture practice, get in touch by leaving a comment below.

Resources:
The Forest Garden Greenhouse
Central Rocky Mountain Permaculture
Chelsea Green Publishing 

This conversation centers around her work with the collaborative and how to foster permaculture people, not just permaculture landscapes. This is more than permaculture as a design practice, but as an embodiment of all the pieces that make permaculture what it has become, a way to live in an ecologically sound way.

Find more information about Rachel Kaplan and her work on Permaculture from the Inside Out at https://13MoonCollaborative.com

Stepping away from this interview, I find my view on the idea of Zone 00 changing. For a long time I rejected the idea of the personal work, of the inner landscape, because it skirted the line of spirituality and woo a bit too much for my taste, because the presentations of the idea of Zone 00 were couched in language more mystical than mundane. Studying the American Civil Rights Movement and other non-violent movements, however, showed that transformation begins with the self before the physical manifestation in the world. In some cases, like the Salt March lead by Ghandi, can take 15 years of personal growth and preparation. Those stories are too often left out of the history books and so we only see the end results. Not the beginning. For us to create a more bountiful world we need to address that inner landscape to know our heart’s desire, understand our calling, and to heal so that we can heal the world. By taking care of ourselves, we can practice permaculture from the inside out. Wherever you are on your journey, whatever you are doing whether you are a new student, a teacher, or a small business owner, the door remains open if there is some way I can assist you.  

Resources:
13 Moon Collaborative (Rachel’s Teaching Work)
Urban Homesteading (Rachel’s Book Site)
Charles Eisenstein
Permaculture Skills Center
The Information Diet
Johnston Square Open House
Howard Zinn A People’s History of The United States (Wikipedia)

Related Interviews
Erik Ohlsen
Jason Godesky

Along the way we also talk about education, and some of the differences between Australian and American training, including the work to formalize the permaculture design certificate.

You can find out more about Taj and her work at ThePermaPixie.com, which includes her calendar, blog, videos, and lots of other information.

What I like about this conversation is hearing that there is a movement afoot in the world to take this work of permaculture and find ways to make it more available and accessible through existing systems. To professionalize our practices. To provide opportunities that help fund education and make permaculture more accessible through programs that already exist. Another piece of this is Taj’s sharing of a potential 4th ethic, the ethic of transition. I like this idea, and am considering including it in my own practices, as it continues the thread discussing the space between personal responsibility and the systemic issues we face within the culture we come from that extends directly into the practice of permaculture. Though we might encapsulate this in the existing strategy of appropriate technology, I find that this stands stronger as an ethic, because it provides a place to work through the world we live in at the moment, so we can build the framework of the world we want to live in. In that, each of us have choices to make.

What will we use from the old system to build the new? For some that includes formal education in the university model as it stands. To others that means accepting an informal process that provides different opportunities. In permaculture, that could be embracing the Mollisonian approach to a Permaculture Design Course, underneath the umbrella of a group like PRI or PINA, while others are creating new programs that deliver the similar content in a different way that includes things like new Ethics or principles that build on the earlier material, or focused on a particular subset of the community such as activists or community organizers. Others still might live in the gift while others use capitalism. While one rejects flying another might use flight as a way to teach the world. Live without computers or electricity as a model for others, or embrace these technologies to share those ideas with the world. In making these choices, and deciding how to move forward as individuals, we need to start talking about what we are doing as a community, inside and outside of permaculture.

What works? What doesn’t? Where do we feel included? Where do we feel excluded? How are we our own worst enemies? Is organizing formally drawing you in to do more? Or are you feeling rejected because of the emerging structures? Where do you see examples of racism? Sexism? Where can we be allies to one another and come together to make a real and lasting difference? You are not alone. I am not alone. We’re all in this together. Let’s work on making the world a more bountiful place.

If there is any way I can help, get in touch by leaving a comment below.

Resources:
The Perma Pixie (Taj’s Site)
Permaculture College Australia (Robyn Francis)