I interviewed Stephen at the request of my teacher and friend Ben Weiss. Stephen's work was on my radar, but given the many potential guests filling that screen, and the release schedule for the show, it can take time to get to someone. Hearing from listeners, of which Ben is one, helps change priorities so a guest you are interested in gets included in the show sooner. What intrigued me about Stephen, as you'll hear in our conversation, is his eloquence and viewpoint on a position. He's spent a lifetime on the path that I intersected at the time of this conversation, and it shows. His pursuits result in a breadth of knowledge and consideration for his interests.

When preparing for this interview I encountered this idea on his website: “He is a tireless advocate for the reincorporation of the exploratory artist, independent scholar, amateur naturalist, and citizen scientist in American society - especially as a counterweight to the influence of corporate science and technology.” That forms the place where we start the conversation. Along the way we talk about education, sense experiences, the difference between schooling and education, holistic knowledge, community, and also to trust the individual genius of people.

As always, that is only a glimpse of the depth that Stephen shares with us. For those of you who are more familiar with his herbal work, that will need to be discussed another time. Though I'm still contemplating many of the things we covered in this interview, some points stand out. The first is that Stephen found his own way and has been crafting a life out of it ever since. Though the path has crossed many jobs along the way, his direction continues ever onward.

As many of you heard from my story of permaculture, there are many way to get where we want to go, so long as we remember the goal and enjoy the trip along the way. The second is to trust the individual genius of people. We all have gifts or talents that may go untapped in our day-to-day lives but those can be rekindled. You can reconnect with your own life, your community (however that is defined), and with the earth to live the life you want. Pam Warhurst and I spoke to the of trusting people as well, something I find we don't always do. If we want to build a better world, that requires us to trust in our self and each other. Third, is to find your own education. Become an educated person in your own right. For some, that may be schooling because of the niche they fill, or to read, write, and discuss with others to ask questions, consider the results critically, and find your own answers. To become that citizen artist, philospher, or scientist that finds more connections about the world, and the way we can think differently. The last point is to trust your own feelings. We have a role to play in this greater world, and in finding our own satisfaction. Society doesn't value all these things equally, or at all, so you may not be able to make a living at your passion but that doesn't mean that because it doesn't make dollars that it doesn't make sense. In whatever way you use this information, remember to never let discouragement set you off the path. There are many stories of success that forget to mention the failures that happened along the way. As I said in my tale, it took me over 15 years to get to the point where I could even consider the road I'm on. And I've got a long way to go yet. But I'm glad you're along with me for the journey.

If you ever have any questions or comments, or there is a way I can help you on your path to permaculture, never hesitate to contact me. Leave a comment below.

He joins us to talk about his next book, which he is seeking to support with a crowd-funding campaign via Kickstarter. That book Eric is working on, and needs your help with, examines perennial solutions to stabilizing and reducing the impacts of climate change, and to help bolster a reduction of fossil fuels, including an eventual transition to a petro-chemical free future.

Our conversation, though a bit nerdy at times, expands the thinking on potential yields in a system, and how we can creatively respond to change. I find his decision to use crowd-funding as a model fascinating because of how it connects authors and producers with their audience, allowing them to combine efforts to create works of value in a way equitable to everyone involved. Here is the idea of collaboration, not competition, being used in a horizontal way.

His kickstarter campaign runs until April 30th. At this point he's not quite halfway to his goal, but making steady climbs, including my own donation to his cause. He and I got a little geeky on the industrial perennial possibilities, but I keep turning over all those yields, many of which I didn't know about. Milkweed (Asclepias L.) is of particular interest because it grows readily here in central Pennsylvania and is the host species for the monarch butterfly (Danaus plexippu). What other creative or novel solutions exist we haven't begun to consider yet? What ways have you thought of to make a difference with permaculture that's new to you?

I'd love to hear from you. Please leave a comment below.

The two articles that form the genesis of Eric's book can be found here:
Perennial Staple Crops of the World
Stabilizing the Climate with Permanent Agriculture

Resources:
Eric Toensmeier
Perennial Solutions
Kickstarter Campaign for Writing the Carbon Farming Toolkit.

Our conversation, broadly, covers Agroforestry, what it is, the various techniques, and what we can learn from these practices as permaculturists. Mushroom cultivation and forest gardens are woven throughout. Two terms of particular interest are Analog Design and Upcycling, which I leave Steve to explain. His experience with academic research blended with permaculture, and his articulate explanation of the material at hand, even when I throw some unplanned curveballs in the process, make this a nice extension to several of the past interviews, including Ethan Hughes and Dr. Bern Sweeney.

After you listen to Steve, I recommend going back through the archives, if you haven't heard them, and listen to those other guests or any others that catch your eye (or, should that be ear?). The pieces start to fall into place about how all the conversations, past, present, and yet to come, about both visible and invisible structures are connected within the web of Permaculture. Help Steve, and Dr. Mudge, with their project to document forest farms! If you are a forest farmer: Take the Survey. If you're interested in Forest Farms: Support the Book (Indie Go Go).

Resources:
Steve Gabriel
Dr. Ken Mudge
Farming the Woods
Indie Go Go Campaign to Support Farming The Woods
Finger Lakes Permaculture Institute
North-East Mushroom Growers Network (Cornell)
The Redesigned Forest by Chris Maser
U.S. Forest Service Climage Change Atlas

I wanted to talk to David because of my curiosity. His contributions to this field are many, but what I knew of him and his work was a mystery. Rather than continue on with conjecture, why not talk to him? From conversations with the listeners and other practitioners I knew there was a desire to know more about David; To hear his own words, in his own voice. During this conversation we talk about the early days of permaculture, his development with Bill Mollison of the core concepts, as well as his work over the years through each of three waves of environmentalism he identifies: the limits of resources in the 1970s, the limits of what we can put into the environment during the 1980s and 90s, and the convergence of these two ideas over the last decade or so. The last portion of the interview is about how to continue to grow permaculture, which took a direction that, initially, surprised me.

Resources:
David Holmgren
Permaculture Principles
Novel Ecosystems Introduction (Wiki)
Novel Ecosystems: Theoretical and Management Aspects of the New Ecological World Order (PDF)
Perspective: Is Everything A Novel Ecosystem? (PDF)

I was struck by her work in planting edible landscapes because it happens with volunteers, not a whole lot of money, and often without permission. As I learned in our conversation, this is also done without endless talks and meetings. This is a movement about action. Incredible Edible is more than growing food, but also educating people, growing businesses, and fostering community. Here is a way to build not only a better world, but a kinder one as well.

Resources:
Incredible Edible Todmorden

Pam's TED Talk:

Their organization is devoted to doing on the ground education and to serve as a hub to connect people with information and ideas in the San Diego area. When Josh came to my attention, I was fascinated by the amount of classes and workshops being offered by the San Diego Sustainable Living Institute, and then in scheduling the show, also by the passion he has for teaching and sharing permaculture. With our time together, the conversation covers his own long passage to permaculture, the work of the institute, and dry land permaculture techniques. Along the way his love of all these things, and his experience, come through.
Resources:
People:
Josh Robinson
Brad Lancaster
Chris Anderson
Karen Taylor
Lisa Rayner
Matt Berry
Penny Livingston-Stark

Organizations:
San Diego Sustainable Living Institute
Lama Foundation
Prescott College

There we talked about Community Developed Finance, here Adam and I speak more broadly about Invisible Structures and his emerging Invisible Structures Pattern Language. This invisible structure theme began when I first spoke with Adam and I've wanted to follow up on it for some time. What we are capable of as individuals is multiplied when we come together. Many hands make light work whether designing a landscape, working out the details of an alternative economic system, or building community. In Permaculture, there's plenty of work on backyard permaculture, and as Rafter Sass Ferguson's study shows the work on broad scale is growing. To take these ideas further, we now need to move from the physical and start on the small scale invisible structures: our friends and neighbors. And then our community.

You want to review his online presentation here: Adam Brock's Invisible Structure Pattern Language Take your time to look it over. If you have thoughts on what to the pattern language, leave a comment and help Adam grow this body of knowledge he's working on.

I think these pattern languages, in the long term, serve as one of the best ways to take the vast body of information we have available as permaculture practitioners, and break them down into something we can carry with us. Though the descriptors that go with each piece of the language may take several paragraphs, or pages, to explain in detail, the title of the pattern is short. You can take all titles from the patterns in Peter Bane's A Permaculture Handbook, which is excellent by the way, and write them down on the front and back of a single sheet of paper. The same can be said for the edible forest garden pattern language in Edible Forest Gardens by Dave Jacke and Eric Toensmeier. Take those two, add in Alexander's plus Mr. Brock's, and you have a very powerful reference, that extends the ethics and principles of permaculture. This toolkit allows us to facilitate designing larger, more varied systems, all in a format that fits in a pocket.

Inspirations for Adam's Pattern Language:
A Pattern Language by Christopher Alexander, Sarah Ishikawa, and Murray Silverstein.
Debt the First 5,000 Years by David Graeber
Edible Forest Gardens by Dave Jacke and Eric Toensmeier
The Empowerment Manual by Starhawk
People and Permaculture by Looby MacNamara
The Permaculture Handbook by Peter Bane
Sacred Economics by Charles Eisenstein

Resources:
The GrowHaus
Tyranny of Structurelessness by Jo Freeman

I've enjoyed these two interviews with Bill because he's able to take these ideas, that to me are very heavy material and largely impenetrable from the outside, and demystify them into something very accessible. As permaculture practitioners, we take gardening, horticulture, and biochar, to name a few, and tie them together under the big top of Permaculture, which thankfully have numerous clearly written books available to understand them. But Banking? Finance? I haven't found anyone who can break those down into easy-to-understand bits as well as Bill can. And I am greatly appreciative. Plus, as with his involvement in the Permaculture Credit Union, he has the ethical and principle based understanding in common to the more visible structures of permaculture. Though we have alternative economic options in the permaculture literature with things like Local Exchange Trading System, Bartering, Time Banking, and Local Currency, what gives me hope from this conversation is that here is another way to approach banking and finance a bit differently, in a way that can engage the system that currently exists. I agree with that idea given to us by Ethan Hughes, and reiterated by Lisa Fernandes and others, that we need meet people where they are at to make permaculture more accessible, and desirable by the public in those areas that aren't hungry for it yet. As we get the physical structure designs down, the invisible becomes more important as we build community and permanent culture.

Resources:
The Permaculture Credit Union
CDFI Fund

From conversations with some listeners via email, phone, and twitter, I know you're looking for more in-depth, technical ways to begin realizing a different future with Permaculture. To take designs and thoughts on a page of how to make something and turn it into reality. What Dr. Dorband is doing here, as I'm fond of saying, provides another model for how to do something different, in an effective, productive way. If you would like to reach out to Dr. Dorband and discuss opening a Green Hacker Space in your area, his contact information is: E-Mail: waynedorband [at] gmail [dot] com Phone: 303-4nine5-3705

Websites:
Nourish The Planet
Green Hacker Space
Mountain Sky Group

Now he and his team are on the next stage of that journey, providing products and tools empowering individuals to reconnect with the food system, and in turn making urban farming more accessible to everyone. Part of this is through the Maxfield's brand of products, which serve as the basis for their ability to do good work. When I first heard about J.P. and his company, I was reminded of the conversation with Andrew Faust on the difference NYC could make by processing food waste in the city, rather than shipping it out by the truckload, how that could in turn build healthy soil, and allow more food to be grown in the metropolis. There is so much food and lawn refuse in the United States, and elsewhere, that composting and other related businesses present numerous possibilities to leverage creativity and permaculture design into sustainable solutions in the current market. Where J.P. and Waste Farmers make a difference is in tying the business to a set of values that guide the work each day. Rather than try and reiterate these ideas in my own works, I'll read you the Maxfield's vision statement: “At Maxfield's we believe that the hope for worldwide agricultural harmony begins in every backyard. The revolution starts small, and it starts with your own two hands. Establish your roots, work with nature, celebrate the harvest-and cultivate the farmer within.“ The 10 core values that guide the company are:

1. Use passion to fuel change, allow imagination to drive it, and take pride in the vessel.
2. Don’t be afraid to take the contrarian point of view.
3. Believe there is more than less but trust that less is more.
4. Don’t be “right,” seek truth.
5. Strength through diversity, life builds life.
6. Trust your gut, listen, and always ask questions.
7. Civil disobedience through self-reliance.
8. The only productive move is to move forward.
9. Power ceases in the instant of repose.
10. Take time for tea.

Best of all, they're making this work, so here's a model of success to consider. Though the world of permaculture design is broad, there's room for everyone to find their way to make a difference in building a better world.

Resources
Waste Farmers
Waste Farmers: What We Do & Why Maxfield's
Is Sustainability and Oxymoron? by Toby Hemenway.