To understand their process, they lead us through the problems they identified, and the five steps that take us from understanding and clarifying our vision through to incremental implementation and managing your resources.

Find out more about Rob and Takota's work and start your journey with the Adaptive Habitat Land Design Program at ContourMapGenerator.com.

As mentioned at the end, this interview is an introduction to this process. I’d like to have Rob and Takota back on to dig deeper into each of the design steps and continue the conversation about how to codify and further the profession of permaculture design. To that end, if you have any questions for Rob, Takota, or me, leave a comment in the notes for this show, and we can include your thoughts in future episodes.

Resources
The Adaptive Habitat Program Contour Map Generator (Get Started Here)
Google Earth Pro
The Design Squiggle
Verge Permaculture (Rob Avis)
Coen Farm (Takota Coen)
Rob Avis - Essential Rainwater Harvesting (Interview)

Together they share not only the course contents—including three core pillars of the program earth connection, people connection, and inner connection—but also the impact that having such an immersion holds for our ability to embody what we learn. To put permaculture into practice, through an outlined program with further group direction from participants. The course also offers a container to experience community with others seeking a similar opportunity so that students can take the lessons learned about how to live together back out into the world as they seek their own path and right livelihood.

Find out more about Meg and Jimi, The Eco-Institute at Pickards Mountain, and the Rising Earth Immersion at eco-institute.org.

I like what Megan, Jimi, and the rest of the staff at The Eco-Institute and the Rising Earth Immersion program are doing to create a space to live the principles of permaculture through a variety of activities that focus around core pillars that touch on the ethics of ecological design. From caring for Earth by tending the land and saving seeds, to caring for people by learning the breadth of what is necessary to live in community and operate a homestead, to sharing the surplus of various forms of personal and institutional capital. Learning to undertake radical self-care through morning practices that keep us grounded in our body, mind, and spirit. Through all these practices we learn together, heal ourselves, and live our ideals into the world.

Do you know about other immersive or transformational experiences like that offered at The Eco-Institute at Pickards Mountain? Have you gone through a program you would recommend? Let me know. Leave a comment below.

Resources
The Eco Institute
Rising Earth Immersion
Llewelyn Vaughan-Lee
Della Duncan - Upstream Podcast

You can find Emmet's work at emmetvandriesche.com, his Instagram at emmet_van_driesche, and his book Carving Out a Living on the Land: Lessons in Resourcefulness and Craft from an Unusual Christmas Tree Farm at ChelseaGreen.com.

As a permaculture practitioner, what I like about Emmet’s work, beyond coppicing softwoods, is the practical long-term, multi-path approach to his plans. He’s created a diversity of income from the farm that allows him to continue to work there by taking what started as trees and wreaths supplemented with an off-farm income and expanded to spoon carving, planting basket willow, and encouraging the growth of deciduous trees. He’s also considering future generations in his land management and successions plans. Helping to return the farm to hardwood trees—for his near-term use as shade—creates additional ecological and economic value.

By stewarding the ground today, should someone decide not to farm Christmas trees here in the future, the land takes on a different shape that new eyes can look on with wonder and consider the many possibilities at that moment and form their own view of what the future holds. If each of us could use Emmet’s example and plan holistically for the future, even one generation ahead, what a more beautiful, verdant world we could have.

If you enjoyed this conversation with Emmet and would like to learn more, pick up a copy of his book Carving Out a Living on the Land: Lessons in Resourcefulness and Craft from an Unusual Christmas Tree Farm from Chelsea Green Publishing.

If you have thoughts on this episode and want to continue the conversation, leave a comment below.

Resources
Carving Out a Living on the Land - Emmet Van Driesche
@emmet_van_driesche (Instagram)
National Christmas Tree Association
Sidehill Farm

During the conversation Rob shares what brought him to the project, some of his choices along the way, just how strict he is when he says he grows or forages all his food, and the potential to accomplish these goals, of a 100% self-procured local diet, in other climates.

Find out more about Rob, his work and other projects, including those mentioned during his introduction, at RobGreenfield.TV. 

Two things continue to resonate for me as I edited this interview, and as I put the finishing touches on the show. The first is the project-based approach that Rob takes in these deep immersions, whether for this particular take on food, or when he wore all the trash he created as part of his bike journey, which you can see in the initial picture at his website RobGreenfield.TV.

This project-focused exploration is something all of us can use as a model to dive into a subject we’re interested in, whatever that may be. We can pick one thing and see what we can learn about it, how far we can go, and the lessons we can pick up in a fixed amount of time. Maybe we want to spend the rainy season for our location learning to harvest water. Or to take a growing season to explore a particular plant from seed to harvest in different conditions in our garden. Or to take a year and see how little electricity or fossil fuels we can use.

By creating conditions that test ourselves, we can learn more about our wants, needs, and limits, safely and productively which will, hopefully, lead us to better ways to honor the ethics of permaculture when our time with a given experiment comes to an end. The other side that sticks with me is from near the end where we talked about replicating this project in different climates.

Given that humans populated the globe long before the prevalence of agriculture and subsisted through hunting, foraging, and, to borrow the language from M. Kat Anderson, tending the wild, why can’t we procure all of our food from our local environment? Yes, if this were a full-time endeavor, as Rob is going through, it may mean we spend a lot more time on growing, gathering and preparing food, but what if we use that as an end goal and work our way back to where we are in the moment? To start by buying from our farmer’s markets and co-ops while learning what we can about wild and forageable foods. To take the suggestions of Sara Bir and look for the abandoned fruit trees in our neighborhoods, or ask our neighbors if we can harvest from what they have. Each step brings us closer to a local, nutritious diet.

If we find we cannot gain much of our food in this way, why not? What are the legal, environmental, or social factors keeping us from doing so? What can we do to change these limitations, personally and within our community? What are your thoughts on seeking 100% of your own food? Can you imagine doing this in your local environment? What skills or resources would you need to obtain to make these choices?

Let me know by leaving a comment below and we can continue the conversation.

Resources
Rob Greenfield Growing and Foraging 100% of My Food - Day 111 Update (YouTube)
National Farmers Market Directory (USA)
Trash Me
Green Riders
Free Ride
Orlando Permaculture Meetup Group
Shad Qudsi - Atitlan Organics  

In the second half of this interview, out in Mid-May, David and Melissa discuss more of her process and the methods for discovering and embracing our embodied knowledge.

Find an archive of David's podcasts and other work at ecothinkit.com.

Melissa's ongoing research, exploration, and workshops with The Generative Knowledge Institute is at generativeknowledge.com.

Though I can’t speak directly to Melissa’s research and methods, as I do not know them well enough, I am reminded of two points learned during my Permaculture Teacher Training, and while studying Environmental Education at the graduate level: The role of a teacher, and approaching education holistically. During both my teacher training and Environmental Ed studies delved into what a teacher does,  and that teachers do not impart knowledge—you don’t just plug it into someone’s head—but instead act to draw out a student’s love, desire, and interests, so they can be self-directed, while the instructor provides the resources needed for the pupil to deepen their own understanding. Yes, there is a base amount of knowledge needed before we can self-direct, and my impression of this through reading the literature and working with children, is the elementary school years provide the core skills of reading, writing, maths, and communication, that students can then build on through guided rather than dictated activities.

Once this core curriculum is understood, the role of the teacher moving forward is a guide on the side, rather than a sage on the stage. When it comes to a holistic approach to education, especially at the elementary and secondary levels, there are two authors whose work I continue to go back to from the Environmental Education field that influences my thoughts on what we need to do as parents, concerned citizens, and educators, to create meaningful, holistic programs. The first is David Sobel, who stresses the importance of play and exploration, particularly for younger children. The other, David Orr, who write about overall views on what education should be and how the kinds of reforms necessary to get us there.

If you would like to get started with understanding more from these authors, I recommend two from David Sobel: Beyond Ecophobia and Place-Based Education. From David Orr, there is nothing better than Earth in Mind, though do look for the 10th-anniversary edition. Though ostensibly about the natural world, once you begin to learn more about the entire environmental education field, you realize that the real focus is on holistic, life-changing experiences.

These authors, combined with trusting our own interests and knowledge, hold the potential for lasting and systemic change that makes greater understanding and care for the world, our selves, and each other possible.

Resources
The Generative Knowledge Institute
EcoThinkIt
Wholeness and the Implicate Order - David Bohm
Black Male Initiative at University of Central Oklahoma
David Orr
David Sobel 

As Transform 19 is still a conference at the core with these labs as a central component, Kevin also shares some of the speakers and other offerings at the event. You’ll hear about a number of people and projects you may want to explore further and connect with from all over the globe.

You can find more about Kevin's work with Gather Lab at GatherLab.net and Transform: Climate, Communities, and Capital at TheTransformSeries.net

Though Kevin gives us quite a bit regarding the various ways he and others focus on business development, impact investing, and what to expect from Transform 19, what I think about from this and my own experience is that burst of energy we have—the anticipation and excitement—leading up to an event, the fall off afterward, and what we can do to keep the momentum and possibility for change going once we’re no longer together. Kevin uses a lot of technology to accomplish this goal, through conference calls, Slack instances and custom software.

For those of us not plugged into those resources I think of Facebook events and Meetup groups, or even just posting meeting details to an Instagram account or Twitter, to bring us and keep us together. To me, however, the most important part is ongoing face-to-face time together, where we consistently show up. As we have our meetings and conversations after an event, we need to continue learning the stories of those around us, whether a personal anecdote or, like Kevin and his folks are doing with Transform, the stories of successful professionals; the people who did the work, overcame the struggles, and found a way forward. Can we, as Kevin himself mentioned at the beginning of the interview, openly talk about the fact we failed? To share that the journey along the way is more than just our successes and we have other lessons to learn through failure, such as the temperament Kevin’s wife brings to their businesses that balances his thoughts and energy. The further I dig into my own focus with permaculture, social permaculture, and community development, the more importance I place on getting to know one another, through silly stories like the origins of a nickname; to conversations about what breaks our heart; how we fell in love with a piece of land; or discovered the calling and created a business that changed our lives. We all have stories of success and failures. Those stories matter. What are your stories?

Let me know by leaving a comment below. 

Resources
Gather Lab
The Transform Series
B Corporation (Certification)
Regenerate Illinois
Root Capital
The Democracy Collaborative
Lotus Foods
Guayaki
Indigenous Designs
Iroquois Valley Farmland

Related Interviews
Otto Scharmer - Theory U and the Emerging Future 
Carol Sanford - Responsible Business, Responsible Entrepreneur

I’d like to thank Ben and Robyn for inviting the podcast to join them for the day so we could share this with you, and to “Photographer John” Staley for making the trip, as I was unable to attend.

I love the shared story of these three presenters speaking around these common questions, and why I like to include conversations like these, and the others over the years on the show. Together, a multitude of voices address the same series of inquiries. Though any moment, given question or particular response, leads to greater reflection, the one that stays with me leaving this interview regards the inquiry into one’s ancestral history and how that impacts our work and view of the world.

As the descendant of Appalachian Hillbillies and a 19th-century German immigrant, I often find myself considering the ways that familial culture brought me to where I am today. How stories of growing up poor in West Virginia lead my mother’s family to focus on people. Often folks I did not know, and remain unsure if we were related by blood or by marriage, we called family. Anyone who would join us for a meal was free to eat with us. From those roots how came to care about individuals and the community we create. One immigrant, my great-great-grandfather Mann arrived in the second half of the 1800s, where came to Pennsylvania and fought in the American Civil War, before settling with an American wife in southern Maryland to farm. They taught his son how to farm, who then taught my grandfather, who taught my father. Though I did not grow up on the land, as my family no-longer farmed by the 1980s, the soil still ran through me, as we planted seeds. Dug in the ground. Planted trees in the yard with my father on Arbor day so that by the time I was a teenager there was the shade to sit under, even if branches lacked the height to climb.

I’ve carried those times, those stories of past generations, and experiences for my entire life and see them all as leading me directly to this path of creating The Permaculture Podcast, retaining a love of Earth, people, and sharing the bounty of life.

Do you have any stories like these which lead you to your journey? I’d love to hear from you. Leave a comment below so we can continue the conversation.

Related Interviews
Wilson Alvarez - Biomimicry, Landcare, and The Reintegration Project
The Reintegration Project Tour (YouTube)
Wilson Alvarez and Ben Weiss - Rewilding 
Wilson Alvarez and Ben Weiss - Zone 4 Permaculture 
Wilson Alvarez and Ben Weiss - Restoring Eden 
Right Livelihood 
Getting Right with Ourselves and Building Community
Roundtable: Susquehanna Permaculture (Part 1)
Roundtable: Susquehanna Permaculture (Part 2)
Permanent Multi-Culture with Robyn Mello
Robyn Mello - An Introduction to Philadelphia Orchard Project
Roundtable: Philly Q&A (Part 1)
Roundtable: Philly Q&A (Part 2)

Tim joins me to share his thoughts and experiences with rammed earth as a natural building method. This includes the distinction between raw and stabilized rammed earth and how rammed earth can reduce the amount of cement required for a long-lasting wall. Tim also gives an estimate of the price difference between stick-built walls and professionally installed rammed earth, while acknowledges that natural building is a growing but still niche field. We close with a discussion of the importance of valuing our time when considering the cost of erecting a building or other project to come to the real price for any of our work.

You can find his book, Essential Rammed Earth Construction at NewSociety.com.

Below you'll also find links to the earlier interviews from the Essential series and natural building, including the conversations with Bob Theis who we mentioned in this episode.

As Tim works full-time as a professional engineer, the best place to find his thoughts and knowledge about Rammed Earth are in this interview and his book. If you do have any questions for him, please forward those to me here at the show, and I can send them to Tim for a follow-up interview.

What I love about natural building, which Tim reinforces in this interview, is the flexibility and forgiveness of the materials and techniques compared to stick-built homes. Whether stacking earthbags for a dome, filling tires for an Earthship, or ramming earth for a wall, at many steps along the way we can put things up and tear them down again, trying different ideas and learning as we go. Though the costs may be more expensive when we account for our time, we can learn a lot along the way about what satisfies our physical or aesthetic needs. By being involved in the process, we become connected to the spaces we build and what it means to inhabit a place.

What do you think of natural building? What techniques and materials have you used where you are? I’d love to hear more about your projects and accomplishments. Get in touch my leaving a comment below.

Essential Rammed Earth Construction - Tim's Book

Related Interviews
Bob Theis - Natural Building and Design
Bob Theis - More Natural Building
Rob Avis - Essential Rainwater Harvesting
Kelly Hart - Essential Earthbag Construction
The Mudgirls Natural Building Collective
Clare Kenny of The Mudgirls - Natural Building, Community, and Opportunity
Eric Puro - Natural Building and ThePoosh.org
Cliff Davis - Natural Building with Cliff Davis
Eddy Garcia - Natural Swimming Pools

Starting with his beginning as a tracker and forager, we move into his work on getting his farm started, and some of his favorite trees. Among those, we dig in deep about chestnuts and hickories. We also touch on what we mean by the word farm. Creating his families on-farm income on three-quarters of an acre. How foraging and tending the land extends the space we might consider our farm. How we can harvest more food than we can imagine by going to those places and spaces where others might not consider looking for food. Akiva also shares the joy of propagation and the many ways we can do this from cuttings to grafting to layering, and how we can significantly diversify our plant genetics by growing out our selection from seeds. Whether you are growing, planting, or just enjoy trees, there is a lot to learn from this interview. Trees of Power Giveaway

You can find Akiva, his farm, and work at twisted-tree.net and you can find his book, Trees of Power, at chelseagreen.com.

Though Akiva runs a farm that propagates thousands and thousands of trees each year, what stands out for me is the passion that comes through in his voice from his connection to Earth that he developed through foraging and tracking. His experience shows that we can use these skills as a way to foster and deepen that connection. I feel that doing this is essential because we need to love something to care for it.

If we can have that experience at a younger age, it can lead to a lifetime of meaningful action on our part to take responsibility for our choice and the impact on Earth, other people, and our ability to return the surplus. Foraging is one of the best skills for this that we can learn, and also share with others, especially children. Time and time again I see this in my own kids, as my daughter seeks out violets and my son the brambles, to harvest flowers and berries from the yard or when we go for a hike. It instilled a curiosity to wonder what this mushroom is, and can they eat it? To borrow my camera to take a picture so we can find out more about that little bush we’ve never seen before. This started when they were pre-school age and continues now as they prepare for their pre-teen years. Anyone can benefit from learning to forage. As a hobby, it is simple and low-cost that can reap incredible rewards and is worth taking your time to, even if it’s only for a few hours on a couple of weekends a year.

If you’d like to learn more about foraging, though I know some great foragers locally, the best person working in our broader region of the United States and writing about their experiences is Sam Thayer. As Akiva mentioned, Sam wrote the forward to Trees of Power and has appeared on The Permaculture Podcast in the past. His books are just incredible and take you through many of the different ways you can make use of a wide selection of plants, beyond only the edible parts. Even if you don’t live in areas where the particular plants he details grow, his thoughts on foraging ethics and what to consider while walking the land make each book worth much more than the cover price.

Sam Thayer is at foragersharvest.com, and you can find a link to our interview below.

Along the way on this or any of your journeys, if I can ever help, please let me know.

Resources
Twisted Tree Farm
Trees of Power (Chelsea Green)
Tom Brown Jr. Tracking School
The Graves Tree - Arthur Graves Chestnuts
Empire Chestnut Company (Route 9 Cooperative)
Related Interview: Foraging with Sam Thayer

From their experience bringing together more than 13,000 people to over 90 action days, they share how we can learn more, get involved, and make a difference. You can find Ryan’s work at permacultureaction.org and Leah at risingappalachia.com.

Though I interviewed Jasmine Saavedra about the Permaculture Action Tour in 2015, it was my friends in Kentucky—whom you’ve heard in the in-person conversations recorded at the Clear Creek Schoolhouse—who helped get this conversation together. Thank you, Leah Van Winkle and Michael Beck for helping to set all this up.

What I’m left with stepping away from this conversation is a reminder of David Fleming’s Lean Logic and how in those pages he calls on the need for celebration and carnival if we plan to have a joyous and bountiful future. But, we can have that now, and Ryan and Leah and all the rest are working on making this a possibility. The first is through the permaculture action days. We can take this further, however, through related movements like slow music or slow food and celebrate and enjoy the bounties of life and our ability to share a space or a plate with others, a part of our everyday lives and ongoing rituals. This is social permaculture in motion, working with people so they can work the land. As they care for one another, they can care for Earth.

If you are an organizer, or just interested, get in touch with the Permaculture Action Network and see what you can do to create or join with one of the regional hubs. Look for the artists, artisans, and allies that can come together and share the surplus with one another. Need help along the way? Get in touch.

Resources
Permaculture Action Network
Rising Appalachia
The Slow Music Movement (Huffington Post)
Lead to Life
Extinction Rebellion
Sonic Bloom Festival