David’s website, which includes the interviews he recorded for The Permaculture Podcast, is ecothinkit.com.

We’re looking to have David turn the mic towards me sometime in the future. If you have any questions you’d like David to include in that conversation or ones you’d like me to ask him, leave a comment.

Until the next time, show up every day while taking care of Earth, your self, and each other.

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Schedule a Meandering

More Information on Integral Theory
Ken Wilber - Integral Theory (Wiki)
Spiral Dynamics (Wiki)
Integral Recovery (Website)
Integral Recovery by John Dupuy (Book - GoodReads)
Developmental Politics by Steve McIntosh (Book - GoodReads)
Post Progressive (Website)
Integral Life (Website)
Crowdocracy (Book - GoodReads)

Integral Theory Podcast
The Daily Evolver
Everyone is Right - Integral Life (iTunes)
Everyone is Right - Integral Life (Google Play)

Also Mentioned:
Doxacon - Faith and Fandom Convention (Online Conference)

During these times with Karryn and her guests, we’ll hear them explore visions of what the world could look like if we dedicated more of the hours of our day towards work in service to life. And what it could mean—to us, our communities, and the world—if we earned our living through this work.  

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Find the guest for this episode, Carmen Leilani DeJesus at museyouneedmost.me and on Instagram @consentisapractice.   

You can find our host for this episode, Karryn Olson, at Regenepreneurs.com and additional resources from her session with Carmen at Regenepreneurs.com/dejesus.  

I'm collaborating with Karryn to share more conversations from this series with you in the future on The Permaculture Podcast. If you’d like to see what’s coming up from Karryn and her guests, including joining in on an upcoming live session via this link:   

Cultivating Livelihoods In Service to Life: A Conversation Series

Karryn's next session is on Wednesday, October 6th, at 8 pm Eastern with the folks from the Meaningful Work Project.  

In hearing what Karryn was working on, I wanted to share these conversations with you on The Permaculture Podcast, because the specific interviews and themes of the overall series speak to the growing dissonance I’ve experienced myself and heard from listeners between trying to make our way through the world while staying true to your values and the ethics of permaculture, while trading one’s work energy for dollars that are earned through practices that seem extractive, meaningless, or, in the words and title of the book by the late David Graber, like a bullshit job. And as if that weren’t enough, we’re navigating all this while feeling, in our bones and in our souls, the impacts of growing climate disruption, increasing wealth inequality, continual social injustice, ongoing pandemic chaos, and the myriad of other social and environmental ills all around us.   

To help us with this, Karryn is speaking with numerous guests across a variety of disciplines to explore topics that move our individual mindset and shift our cultural paradigms.  

Some of those include:  

Right livelihoods.
Collective liberation.
Regenerative entrepreneurship.
Social innovation.
Decolonizing our concepts of "work.”
And the importance of embracing pleasure and grief.  

Listened to individually or taken together, it is Karryn and I’s desire to revitalize you and your work as we, all of us, stand together and cross the thresholds of our time.   

Until we meet again, spend your days ranting about your needs and wants, meditating on whether you are saying yes willingly or out of a sense of obligation, and considering what work feels like in your body, while taking care of Earth, your self, and each other.

Our practices are also grounded in the hyper-local.  In the bioregion where we tend the soil and care for plants and animals. Among the communities, people, and cultures we come from and where we find ourselves at this moment.

As someone from the United States living in Central America, my guest today, Scott Gallant, shares his experiences in these different regions and how his location in the world influences his approach to design, universal lessons, and specific solutions. We also talk about the cultural and economic differences between Costa Rica and the United States, and adapting to our local conditions.

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Find Scott and his design work at Porvenirdesign.com. The design project he mentioned working on is Finca Luna Nueva Lodge. And he's part of a Permaculture Design Course in Costa Rica from November 13th to the 26th, 202 at Finca Luna Nueva and Brave Earth Community Permaculture Design Course

I would like to encourage anyone who is able to travel and visit permaculture sites within their own bioregion and elsewhere, including Scott’s invitation to head to Costa Rica. If you haven’t seen permaculture on the ground in a variety of contexts, it can be different from what we might imagine, especially as the techniques move away from the conditions in Australia that started the movement or the often discussed temperate climate food forest. Permaculture is, as Scott shared, different in all the places where it’s practiced as it spreads across the world.

I’ve often joked at times, though I still believe the core idea to be true, that if you wanted to you could create a permaculture design that looks like a Victorian tea garden. By applying our ethics, principles, strategies, and techniques to that form, the results can function within the ecosystem.

By imagining designs like that and being exposed to what people are doing and the practices they’re engaging in, the plants they use to fill out their design, and then how they incorporate it all together, we can be inspired and filled with ideas to take back to where we’re from and radically transform our ideas of what permaculture looks like in our landscapes and in our communities.

Growing up hearing my family members tell stories, I experienced how they drew you in and spun a yarn, but it was at the gaming table where I learned to create collaborative tales with others and engage in oral storytelling of my own. This is also where I found my voice and how to engage others in conversation. Though the technical skills for podcasting came from experiences as a radio DJ in college and later working in Information Technology during my 20s, The Permaculture Podcast and hundreds of interviews in the archives wouldn’t exist without this lifelong love of developing characters, rolling dice, and experiencing imaginative adventures. 

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When not working on the show, I play role-playing games with my friends or have conversations about those types of games on Twitter. It was there that I found and began to follow the work of today’s guest, Anna Urbanek. She is the author of Herbalist’s Primer, a book designed as a gaming supplement, with a broad appeal not only to gamers but to anyone interested in plants, gardening, magic, or folklore. We explore those subjects, and more in the interview.

Kickstarter: Herbalist's Primer
Anna's Twitter: 2xproficiency
Anna's Website: DoubleProficiency.com

This was a fun interview for me and I’m super enthusiastic about Herbalist’s Primer. The book draws together these different interests into one place and invites people who might only know one or two of these areas to explore so many more. And it reminds me of something I heard many years ago about how to bring more people into permaculture. The reply, which I believe came from David Holmgren though I am not certain at the moment, was that we approach people that are already looking over the fence. Maybe they don’t want the whole design but would love to learn to compost, save rainwater, or organize in their community. Reaching out to them and sharing books like Herbalist’s Primer is one approach to blending what we love so much with the desires of others.

From here, the next interview is a conversation with Scott Gallant about Permaculture in the Global Tropics.

Until the next time, spend your days playing games, telling stories, and taking care of Earth, your self, and each other.

This question forms the basis for co-host David Bilbrey’s interview with David Dodd. Mr. Dodd is the founder of International Sustainable Resilience Center, a non-profit focused on helping communities recover from disasters and build the capacity necessary to prepare for and withstand these disruptions in the future.

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Specializing in economic development and drawing from his experiences in Louisiana, Japan, Mexico, and Puerto Rico, David begins by sharing ways to achieve resilience throughout a local region by investing in small businesses, growing individual entrepreneurship, and creating continuity plans. The conversation then shifts in a more personal direction as he provides an intimate look at several transformative experiences from his own life and his perspective on the four steps to take to move our individual lives and communities towards resilience. Throughout, he shares stories and anecdotes that weave all these lessons together.

Find David Dodd's work with the International Sustainable Resilience Center at isrc-ppp.org.

When I first sat down to edit this episode, I wasn’t sure where this conversation with the heavy initial focus on economic development would fit into the catalog of The Permaculture Podcast. Though I take a broad view on what it means to practice these ethics and principles in our individual lives and society and focus less on the landscape during interviews in order to expand the community discussion of what permaculture can look like beyond that space, there was quite a bit of this interview which initially sounded like it was steeped in the world of business as usual.

As I listened to David talk about the kind of work he’s engaged in, however, the way these systems move resources and knowledge, from government to small business, from the national to the regional and local level, began to make sense and made me think of Chapter 14 of Bill Mollison’s Designers’ Manual. That chapter highlights many different ways to look at permaculture outside the garden or homestead and remains a reminder from one of permaculture’s co-founders, of all the pieces of our society that need the application of our beloved design. So far, however, we’ve only begun to scratch the surface. Knowing what David and the International Sustainable Resilience Center, and other related organizations, are doing provides us an opportunity to engage with these allies and ensure people, communities, and Earth are considered and planned for in all of their actions.

If you know of or work with communities, companies, or non-profits that apply permaculture to their practice of inculcating resiliency, I’d like to learn more about them. Leave a comment below.

Until the next time, explore what you find most sustaining to your well-being and participate in the activities that build you personal and community resilience, while taking care of Earth, your self, and each other.

Related Interviews
Community Development Finance with Bill Sommers
Zev Friedman on Co-Operate WNC, Mutual Aid, and the Scale of Collaboration
Designing for Disasters: Understanding and Mitigating Wildfires | Matt Fidler
Emergency Management and Disaster Preparedness (Chris Gilmour)
Designing for Disasters with Natural Building (Oliver Goshey)

Resources
International Sustainable Resilience Center
Doughnut Economics

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Though he’s now in the for-profit world, he continues to bring the spirit of permaculture and connection to all of this work.

Find Eric and his biotech work at KaapaBiotech.com. Their line of single-species extracts, including chaga, lion’s mane, reishi, and shiitake, at KaapaHealth.com. Their work on mushroom cultivation in Finland is at NordicMushrooms.com and forest management at KaapaForest.fi.

Below are my other interviews with Eric, including our first time together, talking about The Poosh all those years ago, as well as round-table, community conversations recorded when I visited Eric and friends while he was still in Kentucky. In the episode Community and Traditions, Eric facilitated the conversation when I stepped away to call my children, so you can hear him in the host seat for bit.

Though they’re all different from the interview today, I’m sure you’ll like those glimpses into the history of the show and hearing more about Eric’s worldview and philosophy about connection to place through engagement.

Long before I went off to university to study computer science and worked as a radio DJ, the skills and experiences that lead me to create this show, I wanted to be a medical doctor who incorporated holistic health, clinical herbalism, and plant-based options into my practice. As a teenager, I attended classes and workshops, grew a small herbarium, made tinctures and extracts, and read whatever I could get my hands-on when it came to plants as medicine. Unable to find a program that I felt fit this particular path at that time, it was the mid-90s after all, I went in a different direction. Still, I continue to hold a broad whole-person approach to how we can create, sustain, and promote our health and well-being.

Now, in addition to working regularly with my doctor on preventative medicine and to resolve acute issues, with the ongoing research that shows the benefits of fungi for human health, part of my wellness plan includes incorporating mushrooms into my diet. As we closed out the interview, I’d like to continue the conversation with Eric to go further into the world of medicinal mushrooms and see if something like an extract or tincture is right for my overall goals.

If you’re using mushrooms in your life for food or medicine, or have a question you’d like included in a follow-up interview with Eric about Medicinal or Psychedelic mushrooms, let me know. Leave a comment below or get in touch in the usual ways.

Until the next time our paths cross, spend each day caring for your health, while taking care of Earth, yourself, and each other.

Related Interviews
Community and Traditions (Where Eric takes over the duties as host.)
Community Building
We Can All Be Builders
Natural Building and The POOSH

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As I share this interview with you, if you’d like to learn how to read the landscape, David and Dan are working on a film to demonstrate and teach you David’s methods of Reading Landscapes. To complete this film, they’re looking to raise $35,000. As this podcast comes out, in early August, they’re at over $15,000 raised, with less than a month to go.

I see this video and the knowledge presented as vital if we’re going to implement permaculture and regenerative agriculture on a broad scale, which is one of the reasons I personally supported this effort.

You can find and back this effort at readinglandscape.org

Find out more about the development of David’s demonstration site and other work at melliodora.com. You can dive deep into his principles and pick up many of his books, including RetroSuburbia and the revised edition of Permaculture: Principles and Pathways at permacultureprinciples.com.

Dan is at makingpermaculturestronger.net.

After speaking with hundreds of guests over the years, and trading thousands of emails and phone calls with listeners to the show, every person I’ve been in contact with shared a unique story of how they discovered permaculture, learned design and then implemented these ideas in their lives and in the landscape. I found it interesting in these interviews between Dan and David, that, even as a co-originator of permaculture, David’s journey changed and developed so much over time, from those earliest days with Bill and developing the concepts that became permaculture, to deepening his design understanding in conversations and mentorship with Haikai Tane, the decades as a professional designer at Holmgren Design, and the implementation at his mother’s property and at Melliodora.

Wherever we begin, and however our path changes, as students and teachers, advocates and practitioners of permaculture, we can work together to create a world of verdant abundance. 

From here, the next episode is a conversation with my old friend Eric Puro who updates us on how he’s transitioned from natural building to biotech, growing 10s of thousands of kilos of chaga mushrooms in the forests of Finland.

Until the next time our paths cross, spend each day exploring your design path, while taking care of Earth, yourself, and each other.

Related Interviews
David Holmgren – RetroSuburbia
Revising Permaculture with David Holmgren
David  Holmgren on Permaculture 

Find out more about the development of David’s demonstration site and other work at melliodora.com.

Dan is at makingpermaculturestronger.net.

David and Dan are also working together on a film project Reading Landscape. You can find out more about the film and donate to that project at ReadingLandscape.org. As this episode goes live they’ve raised $11,000 of the $35,000 goal, with another month left to go in the campaign. I don’t just share that with you as a link to follow, I also donated to the campaign, as it’s something I believe we need, now more than ever.

Until the next time our paths cross, spend each day considering your design journey and own unique story while taking care of Earth, yourself, and each other.

Related Interviews

David Holmgren – RetroSuburbia

Revising Permaculture with David Holmgren

David Holmgren on Permaculture

Find out more about Abundant Earth Foundation and Hannah at abundantearthfoundation.org or get in touch with the team by emailing info@abundantearthfoundation.org.

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If you are in a place to contribute to any of the many projects they’re working with or to the mother-ship, as Hannah calls it, your donation is tax-deductible and will go to help a number of worthy causes creating impactful change around the world.

To go with this interview, below I’m linking to some earlier conversations, like those with Brad Ward and Trevor Tychon, to expand on the ways that nonprofit and philanthropic organizations have an impact on the people and communities they serve.

From here, as I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, my sabbatical is complete and the show is back in full production. Over the next 12 months, I’m aiming for 45 long-format podcast episodes. To supplement those and cover your questions as well as the books, resources, and materials that don’t fit into a podcast, I’ve been live streaming on YouTube for the last few months and am adding, at least, 24 of those to the calendar, as well. If you’re able to join those live, they’re also a way for us to have a real-time conversation via your comments and questions in the chat, with my responses coming live on-air during the stream.

This production plan is tied to the Summer to Fall fundraiser. My goal this year, between now and the end of October, is to raise $25,000 and fully fund a year of the show. In addition to the episodes and live streams, having the budget for the year taken care of early allows for planning other opportunities like in-person interviews, video site tours and documentaries, and event coverage.

If you’re not able to donate at this time, I completely understand, and you can help by sharing your favorite episode of the show, subscribe to the YouTube channel, or dropping me a line with questions to include in an upcoming live stream.

If you’re able to contribute to this campaign financially, please do, as your giving allows this work to continue and touch the lives of tens of thousands of people making a difference, for themselves and their communities, every day.

If you’d like to learn more about this fundraiser and discuss it with me one-on-one, feel free to get in touch and we can talk about this need in more depth.

Email: The Permaculture Podcast

Or drop something in the mail:
Scott Mann
210 E. Fairfax St. #300
Falls Church, VA 22046

Until the next time, spend each day engaged with projects you believe in while taking care of Earth, your self, and each other.

Related Interviews
Permaculture & Reforming International Development with Brad Ward
Community Development at the Indiana Community Gardens with Dr. Amanda Poole
Connect Africa with Trevor Tychon

Today’s discussion is one of social permaculture: how to engage hearts, minds, and consciousness during this time of climate chaos. Martin uses his time at Hawthorne Valley and his thoughts as an educator and elder within the region to look at how we can build community, cultural, and personal resiliency.

Find Martin and Hawthorne Valley Association at HawthorneValley.org. You can also listen to David's earlier interview with Martin.

To celebrate the 50th anniversary of Hawthorne Valley Association they recently released a new podcast, Roots to Renewal, which began with an interview with Francis Moore Lappe, author of Diet for a Small Planet, and followed by an episode with Bill McKibben, and more on the way.

Though I’d like to hear more about Martin’s ideas of Freedom, that is a discussion for another day, as what stands out for me as we draw this to a close is the idea of engaging with listening more than we speak, and finding shared connections.

Over the many years of hosting The Permaculture Podcast, I’ve encountered practitioners from all walks of life, with a range of personal and political perspectives that vary widely and are often in opposition to my own background and worldview. What I’ve found time and time again, is that what separates us from one another is often only a small part of our lives. If we can recognize one another’s humanity and what we have in common, that what we don’t agree on is rarely a reason to divide ourselves from one another. In all but one case out of thousands, we were able to find common ground, often around growing food for ourselves and future generations, or on the intricacies of what it means to design for human use.

As Martin said, let us listen twice as often as we speak, so we might all be heard.

If you have a question you’d like answered on air, start the conversation by getting in touch. Leave a comment below or send an email to: The Permaculture Podcast

Until the next time, spend each day creating resilience, while taking care of Earth, yourself, and each other.