You can find him, his work, and his books at holmgren.com.au and RetroSuburbia at Retrosuburbia.com. There you can also buy the book to have shipped wherever you live in the world.

Visit Our Partner: Harvesting Rainwater for Drylands and Beyond

I find that self-reflection, assessment, and awareness can lead to new insights and breakthroughs. These allow us to take our practices further. At the end of the last episode, I started this process by asking you to consider a series of questions about the context of your current on-the-ground situation. From that space of the structures that surround us, let’s take this consideration a bit more personal. Given the questions David Holmgren answered today, how could you use the influences of your past, and what you’ve learned about permaculture, to create and integrate new solutions into your life? What kind of novel personal social-system can you create? What kind of synergies exists between what you already know and where you want to take your practice? Who inspires you that you could seek out to learn more? What related fields are pushing the edge of current knowledge that you could draw ideas of inspiration? How can you, with time, radically transform your use of permaculture into a more personal, embodied, everyday practice? If there’s any way I can connect you with what you need to take your practice further—by interviewing someone in an upcoming episode, connecting you with a particular resource, or anything else that comes to mind—feel free to contact me. Together we can see where the conversation leads. From here, the next episode is a guest post from Michael Commons, read by me. After that is an episode looking at the current state of the podcast and where, after nine years, I’d like to take things from here and how I’d like you to join me on that journey. Until then, spend each day retrofitting suburbia, while taking care of Earth, yourself, and each other.

Fall Fundraiser If you enjoy this show, you can help it to grow and continue to explore the edges of ecological design and what it means to practice permaculture in the landscape, our lives, and our communities by donating today.

Give online: paypal.me/permaculturepodcast

Become an ongoing supporter: Patreon.com/permaculturepodcast

Or send something in the mail: The Permaculture Podcast The Permaculture Podcast

Resources

Holmgren Design RetroSuburbia Aussie Street (YouTube)

Jeremy Lent : The Patterning Instinct

Making Permaculture Stronger Novel Ecosystems

Imaging a World Without Growth

Michel Bauwens : Peer 2 Peer Foundation Patrick Jones - Permapoesis

The Commons with David Bollier (Permaculture Podcast Interview)

Su Dennett

Bill Mollison

Howard T. Odum

Haikai Tane

Visit Our Partner: Food Forest Card Game

This work and the discussion today looks at how people are and can adapt in-place, as individuals and communities, by retrofitting where many of us live: in the spaces around cities, the suburbs. Throughout David Holmgren shares how we found ourselves in the suburbs and the importance of getting out of the debt, commute, and consume treadmill. Together, David and David also discuss self-reliance, the revitalization of suburbia, and understanding and applying the context of where we live to the creation of our solutions. You can find David Holmgren, his work, and his books at holmgren.com.au. From there you can also buy RetroSuburbia! online, to have shipped wherever you live in the world. To go along with this episode, I also have a giveaway thanks to David and the folks at Holmgren Design, Permaculture Design Magazine, and PermaculturePrinciples.com. I have a copy of RetroSuburbia! and copies of the 2020 Permaculture Calendar to share with listeners. I’ll be giving the book and a calendar away to one listener, and one copy each of the calendars to two others. You’ll find this giveaway here at Patreon.com/permaculturepodcast starting on October 10th, 2019 and running until October 30th, 2019. If you’d like to make sure you get a copy of the calendar for yourself or to give to friends and family, you’ll find those at permacultureprinciples.com. This year the calendar features awesome images to illustrate the principles of permaculture, thicker print stock, and better print quality. You get all of that for just $11.95 US, with 100% of the sales profits going to the Permafund, a charitable organization supporting permaculture projects around the world. Any conversation with David Holmgren leaves me with enough to ponder for weeks and months to come after I first listen, and new thoughts arising each time I revisit the interview. Until the release of the second half of this conversation comes out in a few weeks, I’d like you to consider the ideas of replication and context for the design and refit of the suburbs. How does where you live change and shape what you can accomplish? This includes things like what you would grow in your gardens. The rules and regulations that determine where you can live and who you can live with. Whether calling on help for repairs can come from your own sweat equity, the capitalist economy, or an informal network of support. And what sustainable solutions are permitted or illegal. Think about those for now, and we’ll revisit this in the closing notes of the next episode. From here, the next interview is the second half of the conversation with David Holmgren. Until then, spend each day retrofitting suburbia, while taking care of Earth, yourself, and each other.

Fall Fundraiser If you enjoy this show, you can help it to grow and continue to explore the edges of ecological design and what it means to practice permaculture in the landscape, our lives, and our communities by donating today.

Give online at paypal.me/permaculturepodcast

Become an ongoing supporter at Patreon.com/permaculturepodcast

Or by mail: The Permaculture Podcast The Permaculture Podcast

During this in-person interview, we start with what he’s currently working on, including where he’s gone with natural burials and his exploration of chestnuts as a way to plan for the future. From there we talk about North America’s largest native fruit: the PawPaw. During the conversation that follows, Michael shares the resurging interest in this tree and fruit. The development of named cultivars and improvement of PawPaw genetics thanks to growers like Neal Peterson and Jim Davis. We also touch on growing your own PawPaw, as well as the flavor and nutrition of the fruit, and end with what you’ll find if you make it to his annual PawPaw festival, which recently celebrated its 4th year. Find out more about Michael, including his latest book For the Love of PawPaws, his homestead, and other work at ecologiadesign.com. You’ll also find links to that, the nurseries mentioned, and much more, in the resources section below. Also, in the Patreon feed at patreon.com/permaculturepodcast, you’ll find two giveaways. One for his book, For the Love of PawPaws. I also have a giveaway open for a copy of David Holmgren’s Scenario Planning for the Future. Both of those are open until October 10th, 2019. What I love about this conversation and all the times I’ve spent with Michael, is his go do it attitude and desire to instill that feeling in others. If you find something you love, you can learn enough to get inspired, and then go begin. Whatever you’d like to accomplish in permaculture, through successes, failures, and moments of great joy, take that first step and see where the journey leads you.

If I can ever assist you on that journey, please get in touch: Email: The Permaculture Podcast

Or write: The Permaculture Podcast The Permaculture Podcast

From here, the next interviews are a two-part series with David Holmgren discussing his book Retrosuburbia! and what we can do to prepare the communities we live in for the future. Until then, spend each day creating the world you want to live in by enjoying PawPaws, learning more about the native fruits in your regions, and taking care of Earth, yourself, and each other. Fall Fundraiser If you enjoy this show, you can help it to grow and continue to explore the edges of ecological design and what it means to practice permaculture in the landscape, our lives, and our communities by donating today.

Resources

For the Love of PawPaws Ecologia Design Planting and Growing Chestnut Trees (PDF)

Future Scenarios: How Communities Can Adapt to Peak Oil and Climate Change - David Holmgren SilvoCulture: Nuts for the Future Custard Apple NPR: The Once-Obscure Fruit is on its way to becoming PawPaw-Pawpular Neal Peterson / Peterson Pawpaws Deep Run PawPaw Orchard / Jim Davis Lee Reich

Uncommon Fruits for Every Garden

Paw Paw Nurseries

West Farm Nursery (New Jersey)

Peaceful Heritage Permaculture Nursery (Kentucky)

Twisted Tree Farm (New York)

dible Acres (New York)

Food Forest Farm (New York)

Rolling River Organic Nursery (California)

Grimo Nut Nursery (Ontario, Canada)

Edible Landscaping (Virginia)

Red Fern Farm (Iowa)

England’s Orchard (Kentucky)

Blossom Nursery (Arkansas)

Hidden Springs Nursery (Tennessee)

Burnt Ridge Nursery (Washington)

Raintree Nursery (Washington)

Past Interviews with Michael Judd

Honoring the Dead and Holding the Dying Starting Out and Getting Involved with Permaculture Edible Landscaping Michael Judd’s Mid-Atlantic Permaculture Convergence Keynote Address  

On the ground practitioners of permaculture practitioners engaged in restorative business, Joshua and Amanda are the founders and, respectively, the CEO and CMO of Black Sheep Regenerative Resource Management. Together they’ve co-managed VerdEnergia Pacifica, a permaculture farm, education, and resource center in Costa Rica, for the last five years They join me today to discuss how they are scaling up Blacksheep Regeneration Resource management. We also continue the earlier conversation from earlier interviews with Joshua about creating a compassionate future, the role of regenerative investing in saving and repairing the land, and the transitional ethics required in this period of change. Find out more about their work at weareblacksheep.org and verdenergiapacifica.org. The work Joshua, Amanda, the rest of their team, farmers, and friends, are doing through investment and direct commercial action reinvigorates farms and saves the land around them from further destruction and devastation. Listening to this story, I’m reminded that we can all engage in the act of restoration as permaculture practitioners by purchasing a piece of land, if we are able to do so and use the skills we gain through understanding ecological design to build soil, and restore functioning ecosystems that benefit people and the other than human. If we don’t have land but do have the economic resources, we can share our financial capital with the people and organizations that have those abilities. Donate or invest in land restoration or management projects like Blacksheep Regenerative Resource Management. Buy the plants for your backyard from nurseries you trust and believe in. Sponsor a scholarship for a Permaculture Design Course. We have the greatest ability to change the world when we work together. Folks like Amanda, Joshua, and myself, are here to help you find a way to make a difference, each in our own way. If you know someone engaged in work you believe in or have your own permaculture farm or project, please let me know so I can continue to curate that information and make it available to other listeners. Email: The Permaculture Podcast  You can also use that email address if you have any questions for me, or if you think I can help you get connected to resources that will aid your project. From here the next interview is another live conversation, this time recorded with Michael Judd, to discuss his latest book For the Love of Paw Paws: A Mini-Manual for Growing and Caring for PawPaws - From Seed to Table. After that are two episodes with David Holmgren. Until the next time, use your resources in the restoration of degraded land, while taking care of Earth, your self, and each other. Fall Fundraiser This episode starts the annual Fall fundraiser. If you enjoy this show, you can help it to grow and continue to explore the edges of ecological design and what it means to practice permaculture in the landscape, our lives, and our communities by donating today. Give online at paypal.me/permaculturepodcast Or by mail: The Permaculture Podcast The Permaculture Podcast

Resources

Call Joshua: 503-898-2163

Blacksheep Regenerative Resource Management

VerdEnergia Pacifica

Earlier Interviews with Joshua Hughes

Permaculture Politics and a Compassionate Future Regenerative Investing

Transitional Ethics

I don’t see the land and agriculture-based permaculture movement pushing past the point of small or demonstration projects in the near future because of the expense and labor required to create, manage, and harvest from fully integrated systems. Compared to modern agriculture, the tools currently do not exist to scale-up without a large investment in human labor, which drives the price of on-farm production. Farm labor is skilled labor and we must not only train those people but also pay the costs up-front. Compare this to spreading the expense over years with leased machines or purchasing farm equipment on credit. I do find hope in the projects that exist, however, in showing us a way forward as we answer the question of labor costs compared to mechanized production. All the farms I’ve visited created an abundance of food, and importantly financial income, on a small scale. The two most integrated, Island Creek (pictured above) and Salamander Springs, focused growing on around 1 acre (.4 hectare), required three people working 35-45 hours per week to operate from sowing seeds in Spring to the Fall harvest, while training the interns and assistant in integrated farming practices. Island Creek grew a large market garden of foods including annuals of corn and greens, while growing perennials and strong self seeding plants such as figs, leeks, garlic, and Egyptian onions. Salamander Springs focused largely on a Three Sisters garden, with different varieties or corns, beans, and squash, supplemented with Spring ephemerals foraged and tended on the property, and a small garden full of onions, brassicas, and greens to extend and supplement the season long income. The largest I visited, Radical Roots Farm in Virginia, operated on five acres. Even though they used a small walk-behind tractor, this farm, run by Dave and Lee O’Neill, included multiple on-farm interns throughout the year. It’s been several years since our interview and my tour, but at the time it took around 7 people with light mechanization to operate the farm from seed to harvest. The O’Neills also enhanced their regular farm income with a nursery business. From what I’ve encountered at these farms and in other conversations, the successful farms were in the right place while receiving financial support and growing slowly. Holly at Island Creek received the land she farms on as a wedding present and her husband operates a prosperous roofing business. Susana Lein at Salamander Springs purchased an inexpensive piece of hard Kentucky hilltop for not a lot of money and built up over many years. Though I do not know the intricacies of the O’Neill’s origin story, they were successful business people who found ways to grow the nourishing foods they wanted to by supplementing their on-farm vegetable income and living frugally with what they had, again building up over the years. I mention these examples as they sit in a place of—and as I’m reminded by Taj Scicluna’s thought for a 4th ethic for permaculture—transition. I’ve said before, on the podcast and elsewhere, that I don’t think permaculture will be the system that directly changes the world, but I do see this system of ecological design as a model of how far we can go and what will get us to the next steps. We now are the pioneers who push the envelope and help existing groups and those who follow us to create the new world we imagine, with systems yet to be discovered or named. These edges are where I find inspiration as permaculture practices influence larger projects. Some examples of those include Dickinson College and Farmers on the Square; Hilltop Urban Farm; and City Repair Project. Years ago I lectured about permaculture at Dickinson College, which also runs a large organic farm. At that time I had engaging conversations with the professors, and in the times since, the farm staff continue to integrate more regenerative practices. Those often focus on intentional design and positive ecological impacts. I continue to visit the farm which encourages local agriculture through a CSA, but also on-site energy production and waste recycling through the production of biochar, biogas, and effluent fertilizer. The farm also participates in a weekly farmers market, Farmers on the Square, in downtown Carlisle, PA. The first time I went to the market, there were only a dozen or so vendors selling vegetables and a few value-added products such as jams and jellies. Now the market spreads across the square in Carlisle and is filled with vendors selling fresh produce and vegetables, as expected, but also bakeries with fresh breads; meaderies; wineries; cheese makers and dairy purveyors. A wander through the market over the years moved from a few fresh food stuffs to a whole diet available for sale without going to a grocery store. Another example is the 501(c)3 non-profit Hilltop Urban Farm, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The director, Sarah Bexendell, is a permaculture practitioner and brings her knowledge of permaculture and experience in city and urban planning to the work of the farm. Through these actions, Hilltop Urban Farm helps to create youth farms, incubator farm projects, and also reach farmers markets throughout Pittsburgh. Or, there is City Repair Project, founded by permaculture practitioner and teacher Mark Lakeman (Interview 1, Interview 2). Using the elements of permaculture design CR helps communities reclaim local culture, power, and joy in a way that influences street art and engagement. These groups, using business funds, governmental money, and institutional  influence, have a broader reach for those of us interested in creating greater regenerative approaches with wider cultural impact. Partnering with groups such as these in our own area, serving on boards, and participating in the local community allow us to bring our ethics and principles to the forefront of the conversation.

To understand their process, they lead us through the problems they identified, and the five steps that take us from understanding and clarifying our vision through to incremental implementation and managing your resources.

Find out more about Rob and Takota's work and start your journey with the Adaptive Habitat Land Design Program at ContourMapGenerator.com.

As mentioned at the end, this interview is an introduction to this process. I’d like to have Rob and Takota back on to dig deeper into each of the design steps and continue the conversation about how to codify and further the profession of permaculture design. To that end, if you have any questions for Rob, Takota, or me, leave a comment in the notes for this show, and we can include your thoughts in future episodes.

Resources
The Adaptive Habitat Program Contour Map Generator (Get Started Here)
Google Earth Pro
The Design Squiggle
Verge Permaculture (Rob Avis)
Coen Farm (Takota Coen)
Rob Avis - Essential Rainwater Harvesting (Interview)

Together they share not only the course contents—including three core pillars of the program earth connection, people connection, and inner connection—but also the impact that having such an immersion holds for our ability to embody what we learn. To put permaculture into practice, through an outlined program with further group direction from participants. The course also offers a container to experience community with others seeking a similar opportunity so that students can take the lessons learned about how to live together back out into the world as they seek their own path and right livelihood.

Find out more about Meg and Jimi, The Eco-Institute at Pickards Mountain, and the Rising Earth Immersion at eco-institute.org.

I like what Megan, Jimi, and the rest of the staff at The Eco-Institute and the Rising Earth Immersion program are doing to create a space to live the principles of permaculture through a variety of activities that focus around core pillars that touch on the ethics of ecological design. From caring for Earth by tending the land and saving seeds, to caring for people by learning the breadth of what is necessary to live in community and operate a homestead, to sharing the surplus of various forms of personal and institutional capital. Learning to undertake radical self-care through morning practices that keep us grounded in our body, mind, and spirit. Through all these practices we learn together, heal ourselves, and live our ideals into the world.

Do you know about other immersive or transformational experiences like that offered at The Eco-Institute at Pickards Mountain? Have you gone through a program you would recommend? Let me know. Leave a comment below.

Resources
The Eco Institute
Rising Earth Immersion
Llewelyn Vaughan-Lee
Della Duncan - Upstream Podcast

You can find Emmet's work at emmetvandriesche.com, his Instagram at emmet_van_driesche, and his book Carving Out a Living on the Land: Lessons in Resourcefulness and Craft from an Unusual Christmas Tree Farm at ChelseaGreen.com.

As a permaculture practitioner, what I like about Emmet’s work, beyond coppicing softwoods, is the practical long-term, multi-path approach to his plans. He’s created a diversity of income from the farm that allows him to continue to work there by taking what started as trees and wreaths supplemented with an off-farm income and expanded to spoon carving, planting basket willow, and encouraging the growth of deciduous trees. He’s also considering future generations in his land management and successions plans. Helping to return the farm to hardwood trees—for his near-term use as shade—creates additional ecological and economic value.

By stewarding the ground today, should someone decide not to farm Christmas trees here in the future, the land takes on a different shape that new eyes can look on with wonder and consider the many possibilities at that moment and form their own view of what the future holds. If each of us could use Emmet’s example and plan holistically for the future, even one generation ahead, what a more beautiful, verdant world we could have.

If you enjoyed this conversation with Emmet and would like to learn more, pick up a copy of his book Carving Out a Living on the Land: Lessons in Resourcefulness and Craft from an Unusual Christmas Tree Farm from Chelsea Green Publishing.

If you have thoughts on this episode and want to continue the conversation, leave a comment below.

Resources
Carving Out a Living on the Land - Emmet Van Driesche
@emmet_van_driesche (Instagram)
National Christmas Tree Association
Sidehill Farm

During the conversation Rob shares what brought him to the project, some of his choices along the way, just how strict he is when he says he grows or forages all his food, and the potential to accomplish these goals, of a 100% self-procured local diet, in other climates.

Find out more about Rob, his work and other projects, including those mentioned during his introduction, at RobGreenfield.TV. 

Two things continue to resonate for me as I edited this interview, and as I put the finishing touches on the show. The first is the project-based approach that Rob takes in these deep immersions, whether for this particular take on food, or when he wore all the trash he created as part of his bike journey, which you can see in the initial picture at his website RobGreenfield.TV.

This project-focused exploration is something all of us can use as a model to dive into a subject we’re interested in, whatever that may be. We can pick one thing and see what we can learn about it, how far we can go, and the lessons we can pick up in a fixed amount of time. Maybe we want to spend the rainy season for our location learning to harvest water. Or to take a growing season to explore a particular plant from seed to harvest in different conditions in our garden. Or to take a year and see how little electricity or fossil fuels we can use.

By creating conditions that test ourselves, we can learn more about our wants, needs, and limits, safely and productively which will, hopefully, lead us to better ways to honor the ethics of permaculture when our time with a given experiment comes to an end. The other side that sticks with me is from near the end where we talked about replicating this project in different climates.

Given that humans populated the globe long before the prevalence of agriculture and subsisted through hunting, foraging, and, to borrow the language from M. Kat Anderson, tending the wild, why can’t we procure all of our food from our local environment? Yes, if this were a full-time endeavor, as Rob is going through, it may mean we spend a lot more time on growing, gathering and preparing food, but what if we use that as an end goal and work our way back to where we are in the moment? To start by buying from our farmer’s markets and co-ops while learning what we can about wild and forageable foods. To take the suggestions of Sara Bir and look for the abandoned fruit trees in our neighborhoods, or ask our neighbors if we can harvest from what they have. Each step brings us closer to a local, nutritious diet.

If we find we cannot gain much of our food in this way, why not? What are the legal, environmental, or social factors keeping us from doing so? What can we do to change these limitations, personally and within our community? What are your thoughts on seeking 100% of your own food? Can you imagine doing this in your local environment? What skills or resources would you need to obtain to make these choices?

Let me know by leaving a comment below and we can continue the conversation.

Resources
Rob Greenfield Growing and Foraging 100% of My Food - Day 111 Update (YouTube)
National Farmers Market Directory (USA)
Trash Me
Green Riders
Free Ride
Orlando Permaculture Meetup Group
Shad Qudsi - Atitlan Organics  

In the second half of this interview, out in Mid-May, David and Melissa discuss more of her process and the methods for discovering and embracing our embodied knowledge.

Find an archive of David's podcasts and other work at ecothinkit.com.

Melissa's ongoing research, exploration, and workshops with The Generative Knowledge Institute is at generativeknowledge.com.

Though I can’t speak directly to Melissa’s research and methods, as I do not know them well enough, I am reminded of two points learned during my Permaculture Teacher Training, and while studying Environmental Education at the graduate level: The role of a teacher, and approaching education holistically. During both my teacher training and Environmental Ed studies delved into what a teacher does,  and that teachers do not impart knowledge—you don’t just plug it into someone’s head—but instead act to draw out a student’s love, desire, and interests, so they can be self-directed, while the instructor provides the resources needed for the pupil to deepen their own understanding. Yes, there is a base amount of knowledge needed before we can self-direct, and my impression of this through reading the literature and working with children, is the elementary school years provide the core skills of reading, writing, maths, and communication, that students can then build on through guided rather than dictated activities.

Once this core curriculum is understood, the role of the teacher moving forward is a guide on the side, rather than a sage on the stage. When it comes to a holistic approach to education, especially at the elementary and secondary levels, there are two authors whose work I continue to go back to from the Environmental Education field that influences my thoughts on what we need to do as parents, concerned citizens, and educators, to create meaningful, holistic programs. The first is David Sobel, who stresses the importance of play and exploration, particularly for younger children. The other, David Orr, who write about overall views on what education should be and how the kinds of reforms necessary to get us there.

If you would like to get started with understanding more from these authors, I recommend two from David Sobel: Beyond Ecophobia and Place-Based Education. From David Orr, there is nothing better than Earth in Mind, though do look for the 10th-anniversary edition. Though ostensibly about the natural world, once you begin to learn more about the entire environmental education field, you realize that the real focus is on holistic, life-changing experiences.

These authors, combined with trusting our own interests and knowledge, hold the potential for lasting and systemic change that makes greater understanding and care for the world, our selves, and each other possible.

Resources
The Generative Knowledge Institute
EcoThinkIt
Wholeness and the Implicate Order - David Bohm
Black Male Initiative at University of Central Oklahoma
David Orr
David Sobel