My guest for this episode is Miriam Volat the director of Farm School, a project located in Sonoma County, California, in cooperation with the Permaculture Skills Center. The program she is developing takes an intense long-term approach to training up a new generation of regenerative farmers from all walks of life who will then return to their communities to become engaged according to their own interests. Whatever way they walk this road they will do so fully prepared, including business plans, farm designs, and a network of mentors to support them. Though not a permaculture design course in and of itself, it is a parallel kind of program that we would do well to replicate in order to expand upon the Permaculture Design Course and better prepare students to begin applying permaculture whatever their occupation and wherever they call home. Listen to Miriam’s description of the project, including a number of points we discuss applicable to permaculture design. Whether you are an instructor or not, there is much to learn during this conversation. You can Find out more about this project by going to permacultureskillscenter.org and clicking on “Farm School.” Two things, it always seems to be two things doesn’t it, stand out for me from this interview. The first is the reminder that we need to take a long term approach to working with permaculture and applying it to the various systems of the world that we are a part of, while training those who will follow us. Together those actions continue to make the changes necessary to live in a regenerative world. As much as I would like to see something happen overnight, to do so too rapidly is foolish and dangerous. It’s one thing to uproot our own lives to try something new, but we cannot expect the same of our family, friends, or larger communities. Take one step today, another tomorrow, and over a lifetime you can make a difference to the world. The second part for me is the need to expand the pool of permaculture education and permaculture educators. There are many great classes and teachers out there, including some you’ve heard of and hundreds you have not, but we do not have enough to train up the numbers that we need to bring about broad systemic change. The permaculture design course is a great place to get started down this path formally, as are the advanced trainings, but we need more of them, with greater variety. Niches to fill to get this information in the hands of gardeners, home owners, community leaders, and academics. Community programs that fill the role of a PDC-lite, and longer, more intensive ones, like Miriam outlined, that take a particular subject underneath this big umbrella and expands upon it to fill a specific role, be that for a farmer, a community leader, a physician, or parent. Everyone can benefit from permaculture, but we have to bring it to them in a way that is useful and functional to their lives, not ask them to come to us. Eventually I’d like to see a formalized program where someone can earn a multi-disciplinary Associates, Bachelor’s, Master’s, and, eventually, PhD, in Permaculture Design from a regionally accredited college or university. Then we can start getting into the 37,000 public and private high schools, and 2,000 non-profit colleges and universities. By doing so we can step out of the niche we currently inhabit with the support of even larger communities. This second piece comes from my own journey and biases, I’ll readily admit. I’ve experienced the difference, repeatedly, that a set of credentials can make in opening doors and garnering immediate acceptance and credibility. Just by mentioning “graduate student” I was able to interview a number of guests who had hesitated before to do so. Coming as an academic equal shows our own seriousness and interest in the subjects at hand. Just the same, now that I’m through, mentioning “Master’s degree” opens up other opportunities to teach on college campuses or to act as a corporate trainer. The education isn’t a prerequisite, but it really does shorten the line we’re standing in. To keep the ball rolling, if we want to take permaculture mainstream, we need to dig into the system that exists and leverage it to our needs. To be subversive and use what works for us to make a difference. To help students gain access to this education in a way that is equitable to everyone involved. I’m not saying that the educational institutions as they exist are perfect, but we can’t change them if we don’t get engaged. We must do something. We must, each and everyone of us, take action, or these systems will never move in a direction that makes the difference we want them to. As a result of this interview and many other conversations over the past few weeks I’ve decided that I am going to continue on my own personal journey to eventually be able to call this show The Permaculture Podcast with Dr. Scott Mann. Though I don’t know how things will work out, as there are many steps in the process, I’ve begun the application process to Penn State University for a D.Ed. in Adult Education, with the plan, should I be accepted, to start this Fall, 2015. During that time I will continue to be available to the community as a resource by email or phone, and will keep creating the podcast in one form or another. If you like this show support it however you can. Tell a friend. Share a link on your favorite website, forum, or blog. Listen to your favorite episode with your friends or family. Talk about it. Make a donation via the PayPal link on the left-hand side of the website. Ask your boss, or yourself if you are the boss, to sponsor an episode. Go to patreon.com/thepermaculturepodcast and become a member. Send me an email to The Permaculture Podcast letting me know what a difference a particular guest had on your life. If I’ve said something that inspires you, or that got your fired up enough to take action, call me: . You can also use that email address and phone number to get in touch if I can help you in any way along your permaculture path. Until the next time, take care of earth, your self, and each other. Resources Farm School Permaculture Skills Center FEED Sonoma California Climate & Agriculture Network Sonoma County Heirloom Festival Laguna Farm Bohemian Farmers Collective

My guests for this episode are Caroline Wallace and Jesse Peterson, pictured here with their mentor Dave Jacke. Caroline and Jesse are the owners of Inside Edge Design, LCC, a permaculture design firm based in Helena, Montana, that applies the social system design framework of Dave Jacke to their municipal scale projects. During this conversation we talk about niche analysis and social system design and how to apply it to our work as permaculture practitioners to make the invisible structures a more visible part of the process. We use the 6th Ward Garden Park as an example of how they work with a local parks department and government in order to gain approval for the installation of a 1 acre food forest. [caption width="600" align="aligncenter"] A niche analysis of a European Pear showing the products, needs, characteristics, allies, and predators of this plant. (Click to enlarge)[/caption] I find that this interview complements the conversation I had with Steve Whitman in Episode 1517: Community Planning, very well, so after listening to this one, go and check out that one if you haven’t already. Together they help to prepare you to be better prepared to engage the society where you live. Before we begin, a reminder that the Traveling Permaculture Library Project is now being managed by Matt Winters, author of The Gift, and it’s a great time for you to get involved. Email your name and address to: librarian@thepermaculturepodcast.com and he will add you to the mailing list of this cycle of virtuous giving. Find out more about Caroline, Jesse, and their work, including their design document for the 6th Ward Garden Park (PDF), at InsideEdgeDesign.com. [caption width="600" align="aligncenter"] The same niche analysis applied to a human social system, the Helena Parks and Recreation department.(Click to enlarge)[/caption] Stepping away from this conversation I’m left with the feeling that their work will have a huge impact on our ability to design with the social and economic systems of our communities in mind in a way that insures we are able to use permaculture in the process. We could use the principles that currently exist, but we are trained up to look to the landscape as the metaphor and sometimes that frame of reference gets stuck. Here with the niche analysis, the axises of social system design (PDF), and Elinor Ostrom’s Eight Principles of Managing A Commons, we can leverage other tools into our toolbox that break us out of that strictly permaculture mindset, without having to start from scratch, and then expand upon them based on our own interests and abilities and with permaculture in mind. The road ahead for social systems is an incredible one to be a part of and likely to face numerous challenges as we move forward. I say this because of numerous conversations I encounter online where permaculture is still viewed strictly as a means of permanent agriculture, rather than one of permanent culture. Where do you see permaculture going from here? Where are you taking it that you would like to share with the world? Get in touch. . Email: The Permaculture Podcast or write me a letter and drop it in the mail: The Permaculture Podcast The Permaculture Podcast You can also join in the conversations at Facebook.com/thepermaculturepodcast or follow me on Twitter where I am @permaculturecst. I’ll do whatever I can to assist you on this path. If you can help me, I would greatly appreciate it. Share a link to your favorite episode on your blog, a forum, Facebook, or Twitter. Tell a friend. Or support the show with a one time donation using the PayPal button on the main page of the website at thepermaculturepodcast.com or by becoming an ongoing monthly member at patreon.com/permaculturepodcast. Anything you do to help keep this show on the air and growing lets, together, reach more people and bring ecological design further and further into the mainstream consciousness. One person, one story at a time we can make a difference. Until the next time, take care of Earth, your self, and each other. Resources Inside Edge Design, LLC 6th Ward Garden Park Design Report and Implementation Plan Elinor Ostrom’s 8 Prinicples of for Managing a Commons

After a short break to wrap up graduate school, today’s interview is with Steve Whitman, a permaculture designer and planner from New Hampshire. In addition to all of his work on various planning boards he also runs Resilience Planning & Design, LLC. During our conversation today Steve and I talk about engaging in government and community planning in order to inject more permaculture into the process. This is the beginning of an examination of how to make permaculture a part of the mainstream discussion by including holistic design into city and community development. To change the laws, codes, and ordinances in ways that allow us to have a more active role in what happens where we live. As the population continues to grow and more people live in towns and cities we can bring permaculture to the forefront and get involvement at all levels. Government and planning are some really big picture issues and I know that they can be intimidating, but speaking with Steve we kept things very straight forward. There’s plenty of discussion about how planning works, the various ways we can become part of the decision making, and how to bring about change, but this isn’t a technical conversation. It’s not full of jargon, but, honestly, is probably the most approachable conversation we could have on this complicated subject. I enjoyed talking to Steve and between the two of us we broke this down into something you can get started using today just by making a couple of phone calls. Find out more about Steve and his work at resilienceplanning.net. His door is open if you want to get in touch with him to talk about planning and getting involved in the process so that you can begin having a direct effect on the policies that impact your life, so feel free to reach out to him through his website. If there is anything I can do to help you on your path, let me know. Email: The Permaculture Podcast Of write if you would prefer: The Permaculture Podcast The Permaculture Podcast If you want to get started in changing policies there are a few steps I recommend from my own work in doing this. Throughout this next section I’m going to refer to the government body for a specific region as a municipality. In saying that it is a placeholder for anything from a town, to a city, county, state, province, or even national government. First, contact the municipality you want to work with and ask where you can find copies of the local ordinances. More and more, as part of open records and documentation projects, these are available online, or you may need to request a hard copy. Those are usually at a reasonable price. I think I paid $20 for the most up-to-date version from my township, a fair price given the large page count of this book. It's comparable to Mollison's Designers' Manual in page count. Once you’ve got this, begin reading through it and get an understanding for what is on record. Check the dates of when certain things were put on the books, that might give you some insight into, as Steve suggested, how and where things changed in your area. Yes the language can seem rather specific and shrouded in legalese sometimes, depending on how things are written, but I’ve yet to find something that is completely incomprehensible, but if you do have questions feel free to call and ask for assistance in understanding what something means. It’s a great way to get to know a code enforcement officer on a first name basis. Next up foster a relationship with the administrative assistant for the municipality, if there is one. I’ve repeatedly found that people in this position are the gatekeepers to power. Having a good relationship with them can get your passed directly to various officers, or provide insight into where to go next. Finally, start attending board and planning meetings. Use the principle of observation to understand what is happening. Look for places where you can add your voice to the discussion and ask pointed questions. Listen to the responses and consider your suggestions. Weigh in on areas you have expertise and push the edge towards more holistic design. One of my friends is often asked, “How did you get that done?” Their response? “I showed up.” Being present makes all the difference in the world. From here, an update on me and where things are to wrap things up. As of the release of this show I will graduate from grad school with my Master of Science in Park and Resource Management. If all my numbers are right, I will complete this two and a half year process with a 4.0 overall. It’s been a long hard road, particularly while raising a family and continuing to produce the show, but the results are worth it. I’ve learned a plenty that can be applied to the podcast in particular and permaculture education in general. There is lots and lots to do, and my next step is to continue my education and pursue a doctoral program. I’m still researching where to go and what exactly to study, but now is the time if I’m ever going to breath life into The Plan and see it spring forth into the world. Doing so brings me to another crossroads, though not quite like the one last year. I know I’m on the right road for myself, but I am in a place where I need to find a place to live and take care of my children and, as much as I want it to, the podcast as a sole pursuit isn’t enough at the moment to do so. The show is financially self sufficient at this point and pays for itself, but I am looking for a full time job to keep myself going while I keep this show and everything else in the air. The website, the podcast, all of that is going to stay on the air, but there will be changes coming in the future, I just don’t know what yet. Once things start to settle out, I’ll let you know more as I do. Beyond that there are other fun things coming up. June 4 I’m scheduled to record a round table discussion with Charles Eisenstein, Dave Jacke, and Ben Weiss which will come out a few weeks later as a two part (or more) episode. There is also another round table recording scheduled for September, and another road trip to Virginia is in the works to do a one year follow-up with the guests from that event and to add some new interviews to that journey. Plus, in August, I get to go to Canada and be the best man at a dear friend’s wedding. I won’t be recording anything there, but it will be some good fun. Whatever the future holds, wherever my path leads, I will remain here as a resource for you however I am able. You are not alone on your permaculture journey so contact me, however you would like, if I can help you. Until the next time, take care of earth, yourself, and each other. Resource: Resilience Planning and Design, LLC.

During our conversation today Dina shares her background as a forager and herbalist, and her background as a permaculture practitioner which began with a design course taught by Geoff Lawton. We also discuss the plants she chose for the book, the difference between edible and culinary plants, and the distinction about historical and modern food safety. This interview is part of the ongoing series on rewilding and foraging. I have links to the earlier episodes in the show notes. Start with this interview and work your way back through theses podcasts to learn more about wild foods, edible plants, and how we can improve the gifts we receive from them and our relationships with those plants. As usual from an interview, I walk away with from this interview with more thoughts that build and expand my repertoire as a permaculture practitioner. The first is that I am adapting the recipes from the book into a series of lessons to use in my own cooking to teach my children a variety of basic formulas so they can be prepared to cook with whatever they have on hand, whether wild, picked from the garden, or bought at market. That leads to the moment that Dina and I talking about master skills. Cooking is definitely something that everyone should learn to some degree. To that we also include foraging. To that list of I would add creating fire, tool making, building, such as carpentry or masonry, and permaculture design. That is a very basic list, but I wonder what you would add to it based on where you live and what you do. What are the basic master skills you would teach to build a permaculture community? One that truly cares for earth, the individuals, and the culture? I wonder how teaching those skills now, to interested adults and children, can influence the way we live. Will we find greater personal and community freedom by having more self-reliance? How will that change the culture we create and live in? I’d like to hear your ideas. Get in touch. Email: The Permaculture Podcast Of write if you would prefer: The Permaculture Podcast The Permaculture Podcast You can also leave a comment in the show notes, send a tweet to @permaculturecst, or join in the conversations on facebook. Facebook.com/thepermaculturepodcast. From here, a few class announcements. Tradd Cotter contacted me about an event he’s teaching at the end of the month. If you are near Keswick, Virginia, April 24 - 26, 2015, join him along with Mark Jones and Ethan Levesque, for a course called, “Cultivating Kingdom Fungi: Mushrooms for People and Planet.” Find out more about this at: https://www.sharondalefarm.com/workshops/ Ben Weiss and Wilson Alvarez begin teaching a new course on permaculture in an urban environment as well, in Harrisburg, PA. You can find this course on Facebook by searching for Downtown Harrisburg Permaculture Course, or through the link in the show notes. Ben and Wil are also looking for scholarship sponsors for this course. Contact susq.permaculture@yahoo.com if you would like to donate. Finally, as I draw this to a close, this show depends on your ongoing support to stay on the air. Though it looks like I’ll be moving to a full time job this summer, as my life now requires that I have an income that can support a family, I’m going to do everything I can to keep the show going and continue to release new episodes and remain a resource for anyone who takes the time to email, call, or write a letter. You can help me keep going by using the paypal link on the front page of the show at thepermaculturepocast.com to make a one time, direct contribution, or by becoming a recurring member via Patreon at patreon.com/permaculturepodcast. Know that I am here with you, wherever your journey takes you. Until the next time, take care of earth, yourself, and each other. Resources: Botanical Arts Press Dina's Website Past Interviews on Foraging and Rewilding Peter Michael Bauer Violet and Steve Brill Dan De Lion Sam Thayer Arthur Haines 1 Arthur Haines 2 Wilson Alvarez and Ben Weiss Classes: Cultivating Kingdom Fungi with Tradd Cotter Downtown Harrisburg Permaculture Course

As this episode comes out I’ve known Jen for over a year, beginning with some conversations via phone and email about parenting and permaculture and then digging in on discussions of different pedagogical approaches and the changes in curriculum between primary and secondary education, and then getting a chance to sit down together and talk for a while last year at the Mother Earth News Fair (which is where the picture for this episode comes from). Those experiences reinforced our interest in working together as we both have areas of education that we focus on. Mine is definitely towards adults, both young and older, and she has a fantastic ability to work with young children and families. That focus on children and families forms the framework for this conversation as we talk about the various ways that Jen applies permaculture to teaching children and engaging family members and other mentors in order to provide the best experience possible for everyone involved by reconnecting those who care about children and the children themselves with their education. Hers is not a one size fits all approach and it shows. You can, of course, find out more about her and her work at PermieKids.com and via the links in the resources section below. My conversation with her is set to go live at PermieKids on Thursday, April 8, 2015. I like Jen’s approach because her techniques empower us, like all of permaculture practices, to actively and intentionally participate in the work that we do, in this case the teaching of children. As a parent myself and having few role models to turn to when my two youngest were born I would have loved to have had a mentor like Jen to help answer some of my questions about early childhood development and milestones in a more academic, though friendly way. Since I was rediscovering permaculture at the time this would have been most valuable. Times have changed and we adapted to include both private and public schools to handle the early childhood education with my children, while supplementing with family activities, yet every time I talk with Jen I’m given new tools, such as her very visual child friendly Me-Map, that I can use now even though we are not homeschooling. When it comes to education in general I don’t like the idea of specialized education before college. I want everyone, particularly permaculture practitioners and their children, to be polymaths. There is a line I turn to time and time again from the author Robert Heinlein that expresses my thoughts rather succinctly. “A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” Though I might lean away from the more violent aspects of that quote, the general tenor of it holds true to what I see as the role of education. We’re not cogs in a machine. We don’t have just one job in this life where we push a button repeatedly to create the same thing over and over again. We are, all of us, capable of incredible things. We are more than the sum of our parts. I’m not just a podcast creator. I’m also a father, an artist, a partner, a teacher, a bad karaoke singer, an even worse gardener (but I can raise strawberries, onions, children, and cats), a woodsman, a philanthropist, a writer, a son, a cousin (though not a brother, I’m an only child, which also means I’m not an uncle, or an aunt), a nephew, a student, a gentleman, a swordsman, a scholar. And those are just the roles I can rattle off at a moments notice. If given the task to write down all the things I am now or ever was the list would take volumes. The same is true for each of you. Who you are, and your education, matters. Teach yourself something new today. Then teach someone else what you’ve learned and keep this cycle going. If you need help along the way, get in touch with Jen and she will be there to give you a hand. Or get in touch with me and I will do the same. This is our community. By tuning in to this show you are a part of it too. Email: jen@permiekids.com if you would like to get ahold of her. Email: The Permaculture Podcast if you would like to get ahold of me, or you can call me: I’m not going anywhere and will be with you for as long as I can. You can also send me a letter if you would like. I think postal mail may be my favorite way of hearing from someone, as I have a box where I keep everything I receive. That address is: The Permaculture Podcast The Permaculture Podcast Also to help you along that way, sign up for the traveling permaculture library project. Send an email to Matt Winters with your name and address and he’ll get you added to that generous cycle of sharing, all we ask is that once you are done reading a book that you agree to mail the book along to someone else involved in the project. There’s a sticker in the front of each book we send out with more information. librarian@thepermaculturepodcast.com To support that and other projects, I do ask for your help. In keeping in-line with the gift economy of this show I heavily limit any advertisers to only people and products that I believe in and that have contacted me directly for assistance. For that reason, I rely almost entirely on listener contributions to keep this show going and on the air. Please consider becoming a member of the show by signing up at patreon.com/permaculturepodcast, or if you would like to make a one time contribution you can do so via the PayPal button at www.thepermaculturepodcast.com, or by sending something in the post to the address above. You can also help me by taking two minutes and doing two things. First, leave a review on your favorite podcast site, such as iTunes. Second, share a link to your favorite episode on Facebook, Twitter, or your favorite social media of choice. Get the word out there and we can help more people create the world they want to live in. Until the next time, when Dina Falconi author of Foraging and Feasting joins me, spend each day doing something new that takes care of Earth, your self, and each other. Resources PermieKids PermieKids Podcasts PermieKids Edge Alliances PermieKids Educational Design

Grant and I have known one another for some time conversing via email and phone to discuss issues of faith and permaculture, and to explore the genesis of the Permaculture Provision Project and how he is using that as a model to explore restoration work with indigenous populations, particularly the Navajo Nation. It is this latter subject, and how he is working with the tribal government and others to raise awareness of the issues impacting the people and lands within the sovereign borders that forms the bulk of our conversation today. You can learn more about Grant and his work at the Permaculture Provision Project Facebook page, which you’ll find a link to in the notes below. I like Grant and his enthusiasm, but realize how this conversation rubs hard against the issue of respecting other cultures. I’m glad for his perspective that this is about working along side the government and the people in the community, rather than forcing a particular vision upon those who are there already working in that space. That this is about elevating that work that and bringing in people who have the sensitivity to not impose external values on the practitioners. Though I know there are people like Grant or Peter Michael Bauer doing this work of honoring native traditions, it is something that I only understand on a cursory level and certainly need to do a lot more reading and research on to even begin to alleviate my ignorance. If this is an area that you are familiar with and can share any insights, I would greatly appreciate it if you could let me know. One other piece of the puzzle I would like to hear about are your Aha moments. I want to know how your personal story, your life, connect you to permaculture. What is the part of your experience that made you give a damn about the world we live in and wanting to take an active role in doing something that will make a difference? Mine comes from when I was around nine years old and wandering with my friend Josh through the farm fields behind his house, building forts on every rock outcropping with sticks we found. His mother would dress us up in his father’s old marine corps BDUs and roll up the sleeves and pants legs so that we didn’t trip over them, using her deft seamstress hands to add a quick stitch here and there so they would stay in place through hours of play, and send us out to get wet, muddy, and safe to trapse through cow pies. We’d slither along stream banks, watch birds, throw dirt clods at each other, look for snakes, but rarely find them, look for spiders, and find them all the time, and generally be a part of nature. Two boys with acres and acres of semi-wild places that we lived in for days on end, only coming in long enough to grab a quick bite to eat before heading out until the sun set, then up the next day for breakfast and to do it all again. Though in recollection it seems like I spent years and years out there in those fields exploring, and dozens more as a cub scout and boy scout, my time in those fields was little more than two seasons. The spring and summer of 1989. That fall I changed schools and did not see Josh again for many years. When I did we were a little bit older, but no longer close, just existing in the memory our friendship and never able to reconnect again. Though I lost my childhood friend, I never lost my love of Earth. That connection sat there, germinating, as I left the wild places and took a road more civilized. As a teenager I sat at a desk and learned how computers worked and how to program. From time to time I would go camping and hiking, some of those human scale outdoor recreational activities. Then as I had children I took them on nature walks and to talks about salamanders. As I showed my daughter the unbuilt environment, the blueberries and the butterflies, I found that love for Earth I had for so long taking root again. With it came permaculture and an interest in how I interact with the built environment, a desire for smaller spaces, and less stuff. As time passes, I turn away from that world built by humanity and look to the soil, the trees, the plants, the animals, and the people (but not their civilization), and ask myself, how do we save all of this? If you have an answer, or just more questions, I’m here to be with you as long whenever our paths cross, or for as long as they run parallel with one another. Get in touch. Email: The Permaculture Podcast Or you can send me a letter: The Permaculture Podcast The Permaculture Podcast As I say at the beginning of every episode, this podcast is listener supported. The show seems to be getting big enough now that I’m being contacted by marketers and publishers who want me to run native advertisements and corporate written editorials on the website, but I’m not going to do that. Yes, it would certainly help the financial side of the show, a lot, but as I said at the end of the episode with Peter Michael Bauer, I’m tired. I’m tired of business as usual, and so I refuse those offers. I’m not going to be a shill. It’s why, though I may make announcement from time to time for someone to advertise on the podcast, there is no “advertise here” button on the web page, and there won’t be. I’m only going to talk about and share things that I really believe in and think will make creating the world you want to live in easier and better for all of us. With that said I need your help to keep this podcast going. The best way to do that now is through a recurring membership using Patreon. At patreon.com/permaculturepodcast you can find information on that various goal and reward levels for supporting the show in that way. You can also make a one time donation via the PayPal button on the main page for the show at thepermaculturepodcast.com or by sending something in the mail at the address above. Coming up on April 7 is Jen Mendez of PermieKids.com joins me to talk teaching children with permaculture. On April 15 is Dina Falconi the author of Foraging and Feasting. Spend each day creating the world you want to live in by taking care of Earth, your self, and each other. Resources Permaculture Provision Project The Colorado Permaculture Convergence (Information and Registration) Navajo Nation John Liu John Liu’s Green Gold

He is also a regular contributor to rewild.com and the rewild.com facebook group. During this conversation we talk about permaculture as a tool for rewilding, examine the impact of government and empire on our ability to take care of the earth and ourselves, discuss the meaning of civilization in the context of earth repair and permaculture, and our individual roles in creating useful change. You can find out more about him and his current work at rewildportland.com. I would like to have Peter back on the show to continue this conversation and wrap up some thoughts that we touched on, but did not have the space to expand during this first conversation. If you have questions for him after listening to this show, let me know and I will include them in the follow-up we will have in a few months. You’ll also find a number of resources below. I walk away from this conversation feeling that the act of practicing permaculture is the beginning of a life that is less civilized and a lot more wild. The more I have conversations with people like Peter, or Dan De Lion, or Ben Weiss and Wilson Alvarez, or read the work of authors like Derrick Jensen, the less and less I can sit back and be mild behind the microphone. I don’t talk about my personal perspectives much, but these guests and their ideas spark that loud and boisterous side of myself as I grow tired and weary of the destruction and damage that is happening and want to see all of us pick up our tools and find out own salvation from this damaging culture that pushes us away from one another by telling us who to fear, why we can’t trust our neighbor, and must always be suspicious. We’re told to question science because it might tells us something we don’t like or can’t bring ourselves to accept because it conflicts with some preconceived world view. That because one of you is a republican and another is a democrat that those political leanings are so big that you can’t get along and realize that one’s guns and the other’s gays aren’t our problems, but are used as issues that drive a wedge between us and push us apart so those in power can stay there and dictate to us what is best, while serving their own self interest. That we are anesthetized with a news cycle of entertainment and shocking headlines. We are in the middle of ecological collapse and we’re told to spend our time worried about who is going to win some televised contest, or that a terrorist group thousands of miles away is going to come onto this soil and ruin our way of life when every day we listen to the people who are already ruining it for us. Those same people who tell us to be afraid and that we can’t change what’s happening anyway so should go back to our comfortable homes and turn up the heat if the winter is a little cold, or install a new air-conditioner if the summer’s seem hotter than normal, and ignore the droughts in California because the north-east got a record snow falls this year. I’m tired. I’m tired of living in fear and listening to messages of scarcity. I’m tired of holding on to hope like it will make a difference, because it won’t. Action. Action will make a difference. I love this world and each and every one of you so much that I want to see a place where we can all come together and live the best lives we can, in the world we want to see, even if we disagree over what that might look like, but to do it in a way that takes care of the earth, so we can have a home that we can live on indefinitely for ourselves and future generations. That we can take care of ourselves, and grow a little food to make sure we can eat and not go hungry, and to grow a little extra to feed our neighbor, regardless of what their religion, race, or creed might be. That we can live, and love, and work together and give a damn about the difference we can make and tune out the messages that say we’re not enough, we are not good enough, that we can’t save the salmon, or reverse climate change, and that we should continue to trust in those who lie to us every day so that they can remain in power when we, each and every one of us, is powerful and capable of bringing about incredible change. Rewild yourself and be free. Whatever road you are on, I’m here. I’m not going anywhere. Things might change with the podcast, I don’t know yet, but whatever happens I will continue to make myself available to anyone and everyone I can help. Call me. . or Email: The Permaculture Podcast. If you have some surplus and you can throw a little something my way, I’d appreciate it, because this podcast is all that I do for a living right now. Learn more at www.thepermaculturepodcast.com/support or at www.patreon.com/permaculturepodcast If you haven’t already you should join the Traveling Permaculture Library Project by emailing your name and address to Matt Winters, who is the new librarian for the project. You can reach him at: librarian@thepermaculturepodcast.com By doing so you will receive a random book related to permacutlure, the natural world, or the environment. All I ask is that once you receive a book and read it, to email Matt back and pass it along. Each book includes a sticker in the front cover with more information to make this process easier. The next books I’ll be shipping off to Matt for the library are: Greg Marley Chanterrel Dreams, Amanita Nightmares Beattie, Thompson, and Levine Working with Your Woodland Richard Mabey Weeds Stephen Barstow Around the World in 80 Plants Until the next time, spend each day creating a better world, the world you want to live in, but taking care of earth, your self, and each other. Resources Rewild Portland Rewild.com Rewild.com Facebook Group Wilderness Awareness School First Nations Decolonization (Wiki) Pacific Northwest Foraging by Douglas Deur Keeping it Living by Douglas Deur and Nancy Turner Ishmael by Daniel Quinn

“Wildman” Steve, in addition to his tours and workshops, is the author of multiple books on foraging including Identifying and Harvesting Edible and Medicinal Plants in Wild (and Not So Wild) Places, The Wild Vegan Cookbook, and Foraging with Kids. We use beginning foragers, including children, as the focus for this interview. We mostly discuss plants and mushrooms that are easy to identify and do not have any poisonous look-similars. We do include an example, which is wild carrot versus poison hemlock, to show that with care and a firm understanding of a plant you can identify and safely harvest edibles. We must pay attention however to do so. As this is part of the series on foraging and wild foods, once you’ve listened to this episode I recommend going back through the archives and listening to the other shows including those with Dan De Lion, Sam Thayer, and Arthur Haines. Together they will provide you with a well rounded perspective on how to come to a knowledge of plants in the wild. You can find out more about Violet and Steve at wildmanstevebrill.com. Also, if you have an iOS or Android smartphone, check out Wild Edibles and the Foraging Flashcard series. They are reasonably priced ways to begin learning more about wild plants wherever you are, and Wild Edibles is a go-anywhere field guide. This interview reminds me of the role that a teacher can play in building confidence for a student to explore further. It was a friend of mine who mentioned Steve during a conversation she and I were having about foraging plants to make wild teas, as she had taken a class from him. Going on a foraging trip like this can allow you to taste some of these wild foods in a safe way and begin to have an understanding of the plants, without just grabbing a field guide and just trying to go out to eat. You get that first experience and can then learn and research more before going out solo. So slow down, take a few classes, spend time with your field guides, and then get started on your own. I also like Steve’s approach to not forcing Violet to share his diet, but allowing her to explore her options while ensuring that she eats good healthy foods along the way. I see this as also extending to the way we teach our children. Include them in your activities, but also include yourself in theirs and encourage and support them to pursue their own interests, or help them to find mentors and teachers who can. In this conversation Steve also provides solid simple encouragement to gradually begin eating this way. This reinforces slow and small solutions in all that we do, from dietary to landscape changes. Take a few bites of something, see whether you enjoy it or it causes a bit of upset, then decide whether more is right for you. Finally, there was Steve’s story of Joe foraging for mushrooms and the importance of asking if we can harvest something. In the more specific sense, by contacting a landowner, but also by observing the plants around us and asking ourselves whether or not this is the right environment to harvest from. If there are only one or two plants, then perhaps we should leave them alone, or if they are rare encourage growth by dispersing seed and coming back in later years to see if there is enough to harvest. From a permaculture perspective one of the reasons I love foraging as an activity comes from my exploration of the environmental education writers such as David Orr or David Sobel. Both of them talk about establishing a sense of place, a connection to where we live. Rather than teaching children, or for that matter adults, about the plights of far off places, let us foster an understanding of our own bioregion and biome. Foraging is an active activity that gets us out into the world looking at what grows there. While trying to identify one plant, by slowly reading and integrating our field guides, we are likely to begin to recognize non-edible plants, as well as rare or interesting medicinals. We begin to know, understand, and then care for this space more fully by returning to nature and the wilder world, and in the process begin to rewild ourselves. From this conversation, next week is Peter Michael Bauer, of Rewild Portland, to discuss rewilding. We touch on that topic as the overarching theme, and also explore the impacts of civilization and how to prepare for the collapse we currently inhabit. It is a rather intense, but enjoyable, interview. If you haven’t already you should join in the Traveling Permaculture Library Project by emailing your name and address to Matt Winters, who is the new librarian for the project. You can reach him at: librarian@thepermaculturepodcast.com By doing so you will receive a random book related to permacutlure, the natural world, and environment. All I ask is that once you receive a book and read it, to email Matt back and pass it along. Each book includes a sticker in the front cover with more information to make this process easier. If at any point along the way I can help you, get in touch. or Email: The Permaculture Podcast. I’m also continuing to look for opportunities to take the show on the road and to record more live in-person interviews. Use that phone number or email address to get in touch if you would like to host or have someone in mind to get in touch with. Finally, a few announcements before drawing this episode to a close. This show, as I mention in the introduction to each show, is completely listener supported. So I need your help to keep the show on the air. The best way to do that right now is through recurring contributions with Patreon. Because this show exists in a digital world, I’ve reworked the rewards and the goals to make them more reasonable and clear, including the goal of raising $2700 a month to make this show a full time endeavor. I’m want to reach that goal by June 1 of this year, and am currently at $68 a month. Please sign up if you are able as all support is now on a monthly rather than per episode basis and you can become a patron of the podcast for as little as $1. That entry level support allows allows you to receive episodes early and without commercials. You won’t hear announcements like this in the Patreon episodes, or from sponsors should I take any on. You can find out more about that, as well as where I’m at and what my goals are, at Patreon.com/permaculturepodcast If you are not in a place to give, I completely understand. I’ll keep on keeping on as long as I can, and you can always lend a hand by sharing links with your friends. Retweet or reply to tweets on twitter, where I am @permaculturecst, or join in the conversations on facebook. Facebook.com/thepermaculturepodcast. From here I have a class announcement for my friends and colleagues Wilson Alvarez and Ben Weiss. They’re running a Permaculture Design Course in Harrisburg Pennsylvania beginning in April 25 and running on weekends through October. I’m also looking to go back through the archives and re-release some more “Best Of….” episodes with new introductions and endings to share some of the more popular guests in new ways. Let me know if there are any particular episodes that stand out to you that you would like to hear as part of that series. That about covers it for now. Until the next time, spend each day creating a better world, the world you want to live in, but taking care of earth, your self, and each other. Resources Wildman Steve Brill Wildman Steve Brill's Books Dan De Lion's Interview Sam Thayer's Interview Arthur Haines' Interview (1) Arthur Haines (2)

My guest for this episode is Stephen Barstow, author of Around the World in 80 Plants. Today we talk about his incredibly diverse garden in Norway where he grows over 2,000 edible plants in a rather small space. We begin with his background and how he came to have an interest in edibles, from his beginnings as a foraging vegetarian, through to his beginning to eat and collect plants from wherever he traveled. He shares with us his love of edible ornamentals, or what Stephen calls edimentals, and he also recommends some to start with when first beginning to introduce more of these species into your garden. One of my favorites, not mentioned in the interview proper, are nasturtiums. What’s incredible to me is that Stephen is growing so many different varieties on such a small amount of space, which echoes what I learned from Holly Brown, and yet he’s doing it in a northerly climate. Less than a quarter acre, or 1/10th of a hectare, and he has over 2,000 different plants. At 64 degrees North latitude. I knew that was fairly far up, but didn’t have a real understanding until I compared it to other cities and saw that this is the same latitude as Fairbanks, Alaska. I took this a step further and checked the Koppen-Geiger climate classification and confirmed that where Stephen is corresponds with other Northerly latitudes, yet he’s growing all these plants. It’s just amazing. I’m including the copy of this book, which I received from Chelsea Green, in the Traveling Permaculture Library project. If you haven’t joined that cycle of giving yet, email your name and address to Matt Winters, who is the new librarian for the project. You can reach him at: librarian@thepermaculturepodcast.com Regardless of where you live, you can grow some of your own food. You can design for your space, your climate, and take steps towards self sufficiency and creating a better world, whatever that may mean to you. You can move a few dollars from one system and into the systems you want to intentionally support. If at any point along the way I can help you, get in touch. or Email: The Permaculture Podcast. I’m also continuing to look for opportunities to take the show on the road and to record more live in-person interviews. Use that phone number or email address to get in touch if you would like to host or have someone in mind to get in touch with. Finally, a few announcements before drawing this episode to a close. This show, as I mention in the introduction to each show, is completely listener supported. So I need your help to keep the show on the air. The best way to do that right now is through recurring contributions with Patreon. You can find out more about that, as well as where I’m at and what my goals are, at Patreon.com/permaculturepodcast. If you are not in a place to give, that’s fine. I’ll keep on keeping on as long as I can, and you can always lend a hand by sharing links with your friends. Retweet or reply to tweets on twitter, where I am @permaculturecst, or join in the conversations on facebook. Facebook.com/thepermaculturepodcast. From here, I have a class announcement for my friends and colleagues Wilson Alvarez and Ben Weiss. They’re running a Permaculture Design Course in Harrisburg Pennsylvania beginning in April 25 and running on weekends through October. Search for Downtown Harrisburg Permaculture Course on Facebook to find more information on the events page, or follow the link in the show notes. Coming up for the podcast I have interviews with “Wildman” Steve Brill on foraging, Peter Michael Bauer on Rewilding, and I’ll be sitting down with Jen Mendez, of PermieKids.com, to record a two part interview. I’ll interview her for the first half, which will appear on this show, and then she is going to interview me for the second half the will appear on her podcast. It should be fun. I’m also looking to go back through the archives and re-release some more “Best Of….” episodes with new introductions and endings to share some of the more popular guests in new ways. That about covers it for now. Until the next time, spend each day creating a better world, the world you want to live in, but taking care of earth, your self, and each other. Resources: Edimentals.com (Stephen’s Website) Around the World in 80 Plants (Chelsea Green Publishers) Around the World in 80 Plants (Permanent Publications) Sturtevants Edible Plants of the World (PDF. Large File) Downtown Harrisburg Permaculture Course

That sounds like a lot to cover, and it is, but the pace is a steady and even one thanks to Dan’s measured and thoughtful consideration of each point that we cover. You can find out more about Dan and his work at ReturnToNature.us. Check out his schedule of upcoming classes and if you get a chance, consider taking one. One of the points that stuck with me from this conversation is that we are all still members of the natural world, even as much as we feel separated from it at times. We can use foraging and permaculture to reconnect to natural systems and cycles by shifting our time and energy away from commercial production and consumer anesthetics to nourishing traditions of food and community. Along the way we can foster relationships with plants so that as much as we use them, they use us to scatter seed and disturb soil. As we improve our understanding of the natural world, by building up our mental database of plants, including their uses, we foster knowledge and ethics that allow us to move more intentionally through our actions which encourages ever slower and smaller solutions. As I mentioned during the interview, permaculture and the change necessary to make a lasting difference will take lifetimes and be delivered upon the generations we will never meet, but we must begin today if we haven’t already. I’ll be reposting Matt Winter’s The Gift for release this Saturday, March 7 for folks to listen, as a reminder of the get rich slowly approach we should have when making design choices, including what it is we will put into our bodies as food or medicine. If there is any way I can assist you on your path, please get in touch. Call: Email: The Permaculture Podcast Write: The Permaculture Podcast The Permaculture Podcast Finally, Jen Mendez of Permiekids.com, who I will be interviewing and getting interviewed by in turn in a few weeks, has an upcoming Edge Alliance on Sunday March 29, 2015 from 7 to 8PM Eastern. Join Jen to discuss Rites of Passage for Young Children. Next week I return with an interview with Stephen Barstow, author of Around the World in 80 Plants. Until the next time spend each day building a better world by taking care of earth, your self, and each other. Resources: Dan's Website https://www.returntonature.us Dan's Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/ReturntoNatureSkills Sam Thayer's Books https://foragersharvest.com/books/ Sam Thayer's Interview https://www.thepermaculturepodcast.com/2013/samthayer/ Arthur Haines' Books https://www.arthurhaines.com/books/ Arthur Haines Interviews https://www.thepermaculturepodcast.com/2013/arthur-haines/ https://www.thepermaculturepodcast.com/2014/arthur-haines-2/ Steve Brill's Books https://www.wildmanstevebrill.com/Books.Folder/Books.page.html Leda Meredith's Northeast Foraging https://ledameredith.net/wordpress/northeast-foraging-120-wild-and-flavorful-edibles-from-beach-plums-to-wineberries/ National Audubon Society Field Guide to Edible Mushrooms https://www.amazon.com/National-Audubon-Society-American-Mushrooms/dp/0394519922 Peterson's Guide (Recommended with Reservations) https://www.amazon.com/Field-Guide-Edible-Wild-Plants/dp/039592622X Newcomb's Wildflower Guide https://www.amazon.com/Newcombs-Wildflower-Guide-Lawrence-Newcomb/dp/0316604429