We then move to talk about adapting the space where people already live, in low-density residential housing in cities, towns, and villages so that they can create resilient households. That strong household provides the base from which to rebuild our communities. These ideas are a reflection on David’s work of the last several years, which leads to another upcoming book, RetroSuburbia. I’m planning another interview with David to focus more on this book at that time. We begin to wrap up the conversation with some listener questions on Novel Ecosystems and whether or not he’ll be coming to the United States with the new release of Permaculture or RetroSuburbia. We close, of course, with David’s closing thoughts. Enjoy this interview and let me know what you think by leaving a comment below.

Resources
Holmgren Design
Why I haven’t been flying (much)

Novel Ecosystems
Beyond the War on Invasive Species - Tao Orion
The New Wild - Fred Pearce
Novel Ecosystems: Intervening in the New Ecological World Order
Permaculture Design Magazine
Michael Wilson PhD on Willow Ecology
Natural Sequence Farming - Peter Andrews
Mulloon Creek Farms

We also touch on the current state of permaculture and the feedback we are both receiving from our respective contacts and audiences; how to make permaculture more accessible, and moving beyond the idea of a 9 to 5. With that last part, it includes how we can make a living doing what we believe in. How to make the decisions that encourage our lifestyle while also looking for ways to make a difference. One of those decisions that I am constantly making, thanks to the question from my friend Jason Godesky, is whether or not I'm ready to compromise. Right now, I'm not. By choosing not to I am led back, over and over again, to leaning into and trusting The Gift. It doesn't always make sense, but so far it has worked so I return to it. After reading these show notes and listening to the episode, with a longer than usual introduction, what are your thoughts on all of this? Leave a comment below, or get in touch by the usual ways

Resources
Permaculture Magazine  The original UK magazine, still in print thanks to Tim and Maddy Harland.
Get Oil Out
Santa Barbara Permaculture Network, home of Margie Bushman and Wes Roe.
Warren Brush
Conscious Company
The Soul of Money
Jason Godesky - The Fifth World

Pulling from nearly 30 years of experience building natural swimming pools Eddy shares how he blends biology, including plants and fish, along with some technology, such as pool pumps and UV lights, to create a complete setup that removes the need for chemicals like chlorine or minerals like salt. By making these changes, we can create fertility from the pool to use safely in our lawn and garden, and even create water that is clean enough to drink. The best part? You can apply these ideas to systems from as small as a jacuzzi, and several hundred gallons, up to a pond covering acres containing millions.

After you listen to the interview if you would like to find out more about Eddy, Sam, and their work, visit LivingEarthSystems.com. There you can also watch the video on his natural swimming pools. If for some reason you can’t view the video on their site, this is the direct YouTube Link: Malama Ka ‘Aina (Care for the Earth)

What do you think after hearing this conversation? Do you want to install your own natural swimming pool or aquaponics system? Are you already working on a similar project, or know of one in your area? Leave a comment below and let us know.

Her book and the concepts of war and invasion form the basis of our conversation today. We take a broad view approach to this idea and move from the underpinnings of her perspective, stemming from heavy research that is well documented in the book, to the idea of restoration and how many modern techniques depend heavily on the chemical weapons of our war on plants: herbicides. Wrapping up Tao answers a series of listener questions.

You can find Tao’s book, Beyond the War on Invasive Species at ChelseaGreen.com. If you use that link to purchase this book, a portion of the cover price goes towards supporting this show.

Something that I like very much about Tao's book is how well researched it is, with copious end-notes. Whether or not you agree with Tao’s perspective on invasive species, there is no question where her ideas and evidence arose from. As someone who wants to see more scientific literacy and research in permaculture literature, I see this book as an entry into a new model for how to proceed with writing material for the community as well as a broader audience, filling a niche between a pop-science book and a peer-reviewed journal entry.

From there, what stood out for me in this conversation with Tao was her long-term, conscious approach to our interactions and decision-making processes that extend our perspective forward, and backward, in time and space to consider not only what got us to this moment, but also where things can go into the future. The smooth cordgrass and being able to imagine that kind of ecological change based on the environment being constantly in a state of transition. With that is the broad-scale view of how to impact the problems that arise by digging down into the issue and creating larger, elegant solutions.

We are drawn out to ask bigger questions. Far too often, from my own personal experiences, it is easy to drill into the details without doing a larger analysis. We make decisions on the micro-scale, rather than pulling out our macro-scope. A zone-analysis is done of a single divisible space, be that land or waterway, and track the influences on it, but don’t step back and do that same analysis for the watershed or biome where that space is located. As we look to interface with larger problems and bring systems thinking to bear upon it, then we must step back and look at the systems that are at play, which brings us back to not looking at just the landscape, but also the social and economic structures. In doing so we can make choices that use the principles of permaculture to satisfy the ethics in a way that can have incredibly far-reaching and lasting change.

If there is any way I can assist you in the problems and issues you face, get in touch by leaving a comment below.

I've known Zach for many years through mutual colleagues, such as Ben Weiss and Wilson Alvarez, and events we've attended. Over the years I've both enjoyed and supported his work (Patreon). Every time we get a chance to talk, as we did in-person for this conversation, I learn something new, relayed in a way that reminds me of a woodland mystic with his feet firmly on the earth, sharing his own journey with plants through space, time, and ever increasing understanding that draws on those who came before him.

Those experiences are grounded in the wisdom of people such as M. Kat Anderson, Finisia Medrano, Reed Noss, and E.O. Wilson. During our time he mentions the way that invasive species are creating habitat that did not exist previously, including the expansion of multiflora rose in Pennsylvania. That is creating space in Eastern Pennsylvania for the veery thrush and its unique song. If you'd like to take a few minutes, and I do recommend it, you can see and listen to this bird here: Veery Thrush (YouTube) Also, because of this conversation and many other folks referring to her book and my conversations with her I'm going to be re-releasing my interview with Tao Orion as the next piece from the archives.

What do you think about what Zach shares in this conversation? Are you ready to go off into the woods and start collecting and planting seeds? Do you already engage in these practices? Leave a comment below.

Support Nomad Seed Project on Patreon

What do you think of what Fred shared with David today? Are there places where you can favor biology over technology in your design? Do you make lifestyle decisions that have an impact on your use of resources and consumption?

I’d love to hear from you. Leave a comment below to start the conversation.

Resources
Aldo Leopold Center for Sustainable Agriculture at Iowa State University
Stone Barns Center for Food and Agriculture
Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer
Sir Albert Howard
Dave Brown & Brown’s Ranch
How to Thrive in the Next Economy by John Thackara
Growing a Revolution: Bringing our Soil Back to Life by David R. Montgomery
Building the Agricultural City - A Handbook for Rural Renewal by Robert Wolf
Collapse by Jared Diamond

After Benjamin Weiss mentioned my interview with David Holmgren in the conversation about Permaculture and Climate Change, this seemed like a fitting place to remaster an episode from the archives.

Even more so, I’m talking with one of my colleagues who works closely with David on a follow-up interview with Mr. Holmgren later this year. If you are new to the show, or a long-time listener, this episode originally aired in 2013. At the time I wanted to talk with David and hear, in his own words, about the origins of permaculture, the influence of people like Howard T. Odum, and what we can do to expand permaculture. Along the way, David takes us through this broad history and what he identifies as three waves of environmentalism: a limit of resources in the 1970s; a limit of what we can put into the environment during the late 80s and 90s; and the convergence of these into a third wave in the last decade or so with Peak Oil and Climate Change. Find out more about David Holmgren and his work at holmgren.com.au  and via the additional resource links below. What do you think about what David shared? Are you working on your own successful models of permaculture? What are they? What area of permaculture do you see yourself becoming a master of one?

Let me know by leaving a comment below.

Resources
David Holmgren
Landcare Trees on the Treeless Plains  (eBook)
Spring Creek Community Forest - Australia
Weeds or Wild Nature
Fryers Forest Eco-village Novel Ecosystems  (Wiki)
The Limits to Growth  (Wiki)
Gaia Hypothesis (Wiki)

This conversation leads to thoughts on preserving native ecosystems, the creation of novel ecosystems, the role and influence of exotic species, human disturbance, and the forces of erosion. We're also asked to examine our own role we have in tending the wild, and what responsibility, if any, we have to domesticated species such as chickens? In doing so, can we take back the stewardship of our own habitat?

Voices you'll hear include:
Eva Taylor of Ironwood Farms
Zach Elfers of Nomad Seed Project
Ben Weiss of Susquehanna Permaculture
Jason Godesky of The Fifth World
Nicole Luttrell of Wind Song Farm
Claudia Joseph of New York Permaculture Exchange
Seppi Garrett of Seppi’s Place
C. Dale Hendricks of Green Light Plants
Dr. Christopher Huvos

Resources
Timothy Lee Scott - author of Invasive Plant Medicine
Tao Orion (Her Facebook Page)

Related Interviews
Tao Orion - Beyond the War on Invasive Species  
David Homgren - On Permaculture

During this discussion the group talks about:

1. Swales and the impact on roots.
2. How to continue your permaculture education.
3. The role and nature of the Permaculture Design Course (PDC) as a course for practitioners.

You'll hear from:
Claudia Joseph of New York Permaculture Exchange
Nicole Luttrell of Wind Song Farm
C. Dale Hendrick of Green Light Plants
Ben Weiss of Susquehanna Permaculture
Todd McCree from Great Escape Farms
Diane Blust from Chicory Hill Farm
Karen Stupski of Goddard College
Zach Elfers of Nomad Seed Project

After listening to this conversation, what your thoughts on these questions? Do you agree with Dale that a swale provides one opportunity uphill, and another opportunity downhill? How long should someone practice permaculture before teaching or calling themselves a designer? Let me know by leaving a comment below.

One of my personal struggles in eating gluten-free and reduced-carb is that I was always hungry. Rarely would a meal end where I felt sated, regardless of what I did. Within just a few days of following The Ketogenic Kitchen, for the first time in years, at the end of a meal and I feel comfortably full and stay that way for hours. The results were dramatic and amazing. I personally cannot speak well enough of this diet, for those who are suited to it. I don't use this phrase often, but The Ketogenic Kitchen is a life-changing book.

Pick up a copy of The Ketogenic Kitchen from Chelsea Green.

Resources
Patricia Daly
The Ketogenic Kitchen