My guest for this episode is Arthur Haines, a foraging author and teacher, as well as a plant taxonomist with a deep interest in wild foods. In addition to his biology work with the New England Wild Flower Society, he also runs the Delta Institute of Natural History, where students can learn foraging, wildcrafting, and primitive living skills. In this interview Arthur provides a broad overview of foraging and wild plants, including what a wild plant is, the difference between wild and domesticated plants, and strategies for efficiently collecting wild foods, so that anyone can make foraging for wild foods a part of their life. Along the way we also discuss reconnecting with nature and the role that plays with caring about the natural world, and how that can deepen our understanding of the interconnected nature of natural processes. Though there's a wealth of information in this interview, and I look forward to following up with Arthur in the future for more on wild foods, there are two points about mindset that I'd like to touch on a little more. First, by looking at some of these different perspectives and how they tie to thoughts on permaculture. The anthropocentric view is where people play the central role on earth and focus on the use of natural resources from a purely human perspective. When considered in a utilitarian way, natural resources are to be used to aid the greatest number of people with the largest possible benefit.

Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (Genesis 1:28)

As I understand from conversations with a friend who is a Lutheran Seminary student, there's quite a bit of leeway on how to translate the nuances of the Hebrew or Greek that leads to using such words as subdue or dominion, but you could easily argue, especially among Judeo-Christian societies, that this is the primary viewpoint among Western societies, and the global North. Biocentrism, in turn, looks to use and value resources based on the impact these choices have on not only humans, but the rest of life on planet earth as well. One example of this idea is found in Aldo Leopold's land ethic, expressed in his book The Sand County Almanac. His land ethic valued resources independent of their human usefulness or economic value, because a strictly economic view provides us with privileges to use resources, but not the obligations to take care of them. He also considered the interdependence of ecological systems, and how, even if we're not “using” something explicitly, it is still in use by being part of the world we live on. Another perspective on Biocentrism is the idea of Deep Ecology as posited by the Norwegian Philosopher Arne Naess and popularized by Bill Devall and George Sessions. The latter two set out 6 principles that explain the core philosophy of Deep Ecology. The did this in their book Deep Ecology: Living as if Nature Mattered. Those principles are:

1. The well being and flourishing of human and nonhuman Life on Earth have value in themselves. These values are independent of the usefulness of the nonhuman world for human purposes. 2. Richness and diversity of life forms contribute to the realization of these values and are also values in themselves. 3. Humans have no right to reduce this richness and diversity except to satisfy vital needs. [Emphasis in original] 4. The flourishing of human life and cultures is compatible with a substantial decrease of the human population. The flourishing of nonhuman life requires such a decrease. 5. Present human interference with the nonhuman world is excessive, and the situation is rapidly worsening. 6. Policies must therefore be changed. These policies affect basic economic, technological, and ideological structures. The resulting state of affairs will be deeply different from the present.

The last of these three viewpoints is Intergenerational Equality. This idea, which comes from Edith Weiss Brown and her essay What Obligation Does Our Generation Owe to The Next? An Approach to Global Environmental Responsibility, is expresses in three core principes. I've rephrased them here, using her original language. Conservation of Options: That each generation should be required to conserve the diversity of the natural and cultural resource base, so that it does not unduly restrict the options available to future generations in solving their problems and satisfying their own values, and should also be entitled to diversity comparable to that enjoyed by previous generations. Conservation of Quality: Each generation should be required to maintain the quality of the planet so that it is passed on in no worse condition than that in which it was received, and should also be entitled to planetary quality comparable to that enjoyed by previous generations. Conservation of Access: Each generation should provide its members with equitable rights of access to the legacy of past generations and should conserve this access for future generations. I find myself most closely aligned with the intergenerational equality viewpoint, because, as I've said before, I like being able to turn my lights on and like where many of our advances have taken us, but understand that there needs to be a change for the ongoing success and development of human culture. I also think that permaculture ultimately leads to Intergenerational Equity, and is where we should try to guide decision making in the broader society. I say that because in each of Edith Browne Weiss's Conservation principles, I see the ethics of permaculture repeated. I also see her ideas aligned not only with those ethics, but also with the Permaculture Prime Directive that Bill Mollison states on page 1 of Permaculture: A Designers' Manual, which states:

The only ethical decision is to take responsibility for our own existence and that of our children. Make it now. (emphasis in original)

Now then, with those three set forth, in order for us to have a societal shift necessary to implement the changes to build a better world with permaculture, I think that the Anthropocentric, or human centric view, has to be moved to one where we care about not only our own well being but also the other species upon it. Though I'm of an Intergenerational viewpoint, I would be nearly as happy with Aldo Leopold's Land Ethic becoming a the broadly accepted approach. If you've been listening to me for a while, you know I'm fairly middle of the road in many regards, and find that the Deep Ecology perspective is too narrow to engage a large number of people and actually move society. However, I am thankful to those who hold a Deep Ecology viewpoint because, as Arthur said in this interview, the pioneers need to live a slightly more extreme version of the lifestyle than the people they ask to follow them. Also, these other ideas, of the land ethic or intergenerational equality, couldn't develop as completely without the deep ecologists adding their thoughts, ideas, and criticisms, to the conversation. After covering those different perspectives, where do you think you most closely align? Anthropocentric? Biocentric? Intergenerational Equality? Some combination there of? In order to bring about that change, I think we need to get people back in touch with the open sky, the green of the forest, the beauty of the mountains, warm spring rains, the beating heat of a summer sun. Which, to break the seriousness for a moment, that heat also includes the awful humidity of the central Atlantic states here in the U.S. “It's a dry heat", said no one in this area. Ever. To make a generalization here, people are losing a connection with the wider world. If you've never read it before, I recommend checking out Last Child in the Woods by Richard Louv. In this book he discusses the idea of Nature Deficit Disorder, though is clear that he doesn't see it as a clinical disorder, but as a way to encapsulate the notion that American society, at the very least, and it's children have become disconnected from that world outside that's not built by man. That we are animals, and part of the wilderness, even as we entomb ourselves in cities. I know this has lead rather far afield from the conversation at hand with Arthur, but I think that the ideas he presents about wild foods and foraging are a way to begin to get people to reconnecting with the abundance of the world, and move them to considering why they need to care about what happens to those spaces that bulldozers and development haven't yet touched. Food is a great way to bring people together, and an easy way to leverage a conversation about change. Especially if they're eating, and enjoying, something you could teach them to find in their own back yard. Resources: Arthur Haines The Delta Institute of Natural History Ancestral Plants Sam Thayer The Forager's Harvest Nature's Garden Dual Survival Survivorman References: Last Child in the Woods by Richard Louv Natural Resources Law and Policy (2nd ed.) by James Rasband, James Salzman, and Mark Squillance Permaculture: A Designers' Manual by Bill Mollison.

My guest for this episode is Niki Jabbour, a garden writer and author of The Year-Round Vegetable Gardener who lives in Nova Scotia, Canada. I've been aware of Niki and her work for sometime having read her book after my wife checked it out of the library. I wound up buying a copy for my wife because she liked it so much, and I in turn find more to like about it every time I sit down and use it as a reference. In our conversation together, Niki and I talk about her book, the writing process and working with her publisher, gardening in a cold climate year round, and the way we can use our ability to build or modify things, such as cold frames or recycle materials in clouches, to extend the season. She also shares some of her successes, failures, and ongoing experiments before closing out with her encouragement for each of us to get out there and garden. We close with a brief overview of her next book. I find her book invaluable for permaculture practitioners, especially those working in a cold climate, working in Zones 1 and 2. The clarity of information, and the many useful hints and tips make this easier on you, with a complete strategy for using the techniques inside. If you know what your first and last frost dates are, you'll know when to plant your vegetable crops for year round harvesting. And, at under $20 new from the publisher, it represents a good value. The layout work the publisher did, with the charts, color coding, and clear index, make sorting through to find what you need simple. As a general gardening book, there's plenty to go off of, plus you can readily adapt what you find using the principles of permaculture. Also, Niki is doing this, so you get to see her with her garden, working in it year round, including in the snow. Whether you're new to gardening, or find that what you're doing doesn't work, or simply would like another voice from the gardening world, it is worth picking up. And, as Kirsten Reinford mentioned in our interview together, farmer's are considered new or beginning for their first 10 years, and I think it's fair to place gardeners in that same category. Even then, there is an imperative for life long learning and adaptation. Resources: Niki Jabbour The Year Round Veggie Gardener (Her Blog) The Year-Round Vegetable Gardener The Complete Compost Gardening Guide by Barbara Pleasant and Deb Martin The Drunken Botanist by Amy Stewart Growing a Greener World and Joe Lamp'l Worms Eat My Garbage by Mary Appelhof Veg Plotting by Michelle Chapman. The garden blog home of the 52 Week Salad Challenge. Canadian Pesticide By-Law Information: Law and Ornamental Gardens - Non-essential Pesticides Banning Cosmetic Pesticides in British Columbia Ontario and Nova Scotia Lead the way on Pesticide Bans Day Length Calculator: The link below is a simple way to find out when in the year your day length slips below that magical number of 10 hours of daylight. You'll need to know your latitude, which you can find by doing a web search using your nearest city name and latitude, or look up your address with Google Earth. Day Light Hours Explorer Enter the latitude on the right hand side of the utility, then using the slider, move the point along the curve to see when the Number of Daylight Hours dips below 10, and again rises up to 10. Note the dates on the bottom of the graph, and you now know the period when the amount of daylight is too short to grow most plants.

My guest for this episode is Josh Trought of D Acres in New Hampshire. Josh is a working farmer, woodworker, educator, and might I dare say, community builder. In this conversation we start, as usual, with his background and how he came to be a working farmer and a name known in the permaculture community. The experience of how he got to this place forms the ground we walk over while discussing his work starting, growing, and looking into the future of D Acres. As is often the case in these interviews, he is candid about the mistakes, successes, and the amount of work that actually goes into making a go at this kind of project. Though it took time, that effort is now paying off. I wrapped up this episode soon after the release of the interview with Erik Ohlsen, so still had that chat with Erik fresh in my memory. What Josh is doing represents another way to consider how to make a living while doing something that you love. In this particular case, in order to support D Acres, it is through a diversity of income streams ranging from farming, to the bed and breakfast, wood working, and selling cord wood, among others. With that work, and I don't doubt at all that there's plenty to go around, is the salvation that Josh finds in his labor with the land, the animals, the products that come from it, and the people that come through it. I'm on a bit of a kick thinking about how all the ideas of the various guests interrelate in describing the broad umbrella of ideas we can consider as part of permaculture. I say this because Josh's efforts speak to the dignity of labor that Bob Theis and I talked about. Josh's idea of land stewardship echoes Bob's thought about not despoiling some piece of land that doesn't need us, but to look for a house in the city that does. In Josh's case, this isn't about the city, but looking for ways to preserve farm land in a way that doesn't require familial bonds to keep it in perpetuity for the people that would choose to live and work there. Then there's the experiences that Josh has gone through in order to get where he's at. Building a name for himself through what he did. Overcoming those initial thoughts that he and his companions would grow exotic asian greens and sell them to hip folks at $20 a pound. Going from that first ½ bushel of garlic in the late 1990s to less than 20 years later to being well beyond subsistence, growing enough food to eat the majority of their meals from food grown on-site meals, while also serving thousands of other to the people who visit, and still maintaining a well stocked root cellar. Here's a working model to show others in the community, and to the world. Going further into the archives is Ethan Hughes and his idea about meeting people where they're at. Josh has had to go from moving in and being an oursider, to becoming a regular and involved member of his community. He couldn't do that by being insulated from, or fighting against, the town he moved into. I'm still amazed at how each guest on this podcast finds their own way to what they're known for. Even as people proceed down similar paths the results are so varied that there's still room for others to try their hand at various tasks until they find their own niche. The last thought I'll leave you with from this interview was Josh's statement:

I think the answer is in trying to seek solutions.

We will find a way forward by doing. Go out there and get started. I'll meet you along the way. Resources: Josh Trought D Acres D Acres on YouTube

He was suggested as a guest on the Facebook page for the show, facebook.com/thepermaculturepodcast. If you'd like to suggest a guest, that's a great place to do so. You can find requests there from time to time for who I should reach out to for an interview. If there's anyone you'd like to hear, let me know there. After reading Mr. Olhsen's biography on his company website, the suggestion to interview him was a natural fit, because of the work he's doing to make permaculture a viable career. As one of my desires as an instructor is to provide a meaningful way forward for students so we can show how permaculture works to a broader world, being able to have a permaculture job, whatever your niche, is vital. Erik is someone who is making that happen, and he's sharing it with others through his Permaculture Skill Center. That center forms the framework for our discussion. In this episode, beyond the normal introduction to Erik and his work, we also talk about professional permaculture, the need for a strong work ethic, including our word as our bond, and developing working economic models to show how permaculture can be a viable career path. Some points that stand out from this conversation was the role of mentors, experience, and the ongoing search for knowledge. Those people we connect with provide voices that shape the direction we go with our personal practice. I can't speak for Erik, his own words do that well enough, but I'm deeply thankful for Ben Weiss and Dillon Cruz for guiding me through the formal training of a PDC. As one of their first PDC students, as I watch my own understanding grow, it's interesting to go back and sit in on a class with Ben and see how his style and methods have changed since those early days. From there came the teacher training with Jude Hobbs, Andrew Millison, and Rico Zook. Each one of them I've been in touch with each of them since. Though our relationships change from the teacher-student paradigm, it becomes more and more one of permaculture colleague. The confidence that instills, that my former instructors welcome me as an equal yet still offer their encouragement on my own work, is invaluable. But those are people in the industry. As Erik noted in the interview, there are other places to find mentoring. I have several family members who continue to teach me about home repair and maintenance. There's my friend John, who is a craftsman and maker who will, with a warm spirit, answer my questions about energy, electronics, and engineering, even when we're tired from hours of martial arts practice, or sitting down over a pint and supposed to be socializing. I get in turn get a better understanding of these and can use my role as a teacher to relay these ideas, more plainly, to others. Taking the time to reflect, or you might say observing and interacting, on our life experiences provide many many places where we can gain knowledge and skills applicable to permaculture practice. In particular, I think this is important so we can find our personal niche in all of this and become a “Jack of all trades, and master of one”. Which is where I liked Erik's personal story because it shows an example built on experience, not on schooling. Though I have a personal bias towards academia, because of the credentials it provides and the shortcut it can be towards societal acceptance, plus I'll admit I was one of those kids who really liked school, I recognize that schooling isn't a path for everyone. More time in school is useless unless you've found a calling that allows you to devote yourself to the work; to turn the school experience into a true education. As I'm discovering on my second and third pass through college, now at the graduate level, I'm ultimately the one responsible for an education, whether it's inside or outside of the classroom. Choosing an experiential route is just as worthwhile, if you're ready to put in the equally hard work to make a name for yourself. Going out on your own, even when supported by like minded individuals, isn't the easiest road to follow. You'll be doing a lot of bushwhacking and brush clearing to find the paths that intersect and run parallel to your own, but you can do it. Erik and others like him in the world can help show you the way. Even if you choose the schooling route, and the pieces of paper that come with them, you'll still need the experience to back it up by being out there and doing the work so you can show people what you're capable of. Regardless of which path you choose, I'll be here, with you, throughout your journey. Resources: Erik Ohlsen Permaculture Artisans Where Erik Teaches: Earth Activist Training Regenerative Design Institute The Occidental Arts and Ecology Center Some of Erik's Mentors: Starhawk Penny Livingston-Stark Brock Dolman

In doing the background research to prepare for this interview I was excited to see that Mr. Theis worked with, and learned from, Christopher Alexander, the person most cited, perhaps, for the development of the idea of a pattern language as we now understand it. But that's only part of Mr. Theis's story. He also has a deep understanding of permaculture having studied this discipline with Bill Mollison.

Mr. Theis's words and the way he builds emotional resonance while answering my questions remind me of the storytelling and aesthetics that allows us to create the art and shared experience required for the development of civilization, that we might rise above subsistence and survival. I connected with what he said, and am thankful to provide a space to elaborate on ideas, even if we didn't cover as many of the topics as I originally planned. In this episode we cover his background, creating emotional appeal through natural building, the role of a designer or architect to provide insight, and the dignity of labor.

As you'll hear, I want to have him back on the show in the future so we can cover some of the more technical aspects of natural building and design, methods and materials. As our conversation drew to a close, I was left with quite a bit on my mind, so my personal thoughts and notes are longer than normal. The first was the role of personal appeal in natural building, and that we need to connect with the right side of the brain, as a metaphor for the creative and emotional part of our selves, as a way to make natural building something more accepted in the mainstream. To reach out to people and not sell them on the logical pieces, like how much money they'll save on bills or that this is a good way to be more resilient, but as by telling a story. Just as supporting a farmer by buying direct provides material benefits through economic exchange and food, we also build a non-material connection as well. Here is another bridge between the invisible and the physical. As designers we can create a desire, something that can't be touched, in someone that leads them to a place where they make a choice or take an action that is in-line with the ethics and principles of permaculture, while also giving back something of value. David Holmgren's imperative to implement exemplary design can attract those people most interested. And, along the way, by building systems that people find appealing, reach more people than we might otherwise. To appropriate the line from Field of Dreams, if we build it, they will come. That's also why I like Bob's last thoughts about renovation rather than creating something new. If we choose good neighborhoods with less than great buildings, the places we settle and then restore serve as further examples for people to see and consider emulating. Yes, I'd love a large stretch of land with a fully integrated design and an off the grid-capable home, but if my homesite doesn't add to the body of understanding in a visceral way, that others can see, touch, and experience, does it do the most good? I think not. Am I better off with a smaller lot and continuing to buy some of my fruit and veg from the farmer, but also inspiring others? I think so, because of the connection that creates with others. As one of the core ideas expressed in the Designers' Manual is about cooperation rather than competition, we should work to interact and aid one another, and not become and insular community. One thing I've been struggling with, which Bob mentions, is the accessibility of low cost building knowledge and information about permaculture for those who need it. This is something I'll most likely speak about more in my review of Ben Falk's book, The Resilient Farm and Homestead, but I think his comment about seeing middle class folks come to courses is reflective of the pioneers who are able to afford the time and energy to indulge their interests and invest in this future. If you're living a life just trying to make it from one day to the next, it's hard to think beyond the next moment. To take the money in your pocket, that buys food right now, and turn it into an investment of a fruit tree that will provide in the future. For now, those of us doing this kind of work professionally need the pioneers who to help pave this path forward. They can afford to pay to learn this information, to buy the books, and take time away from a job to come to classes. That puts money into the pockets of teachers so they can spend more time doing this work and reach more people. As I'm fond of thinking of it, that's the third ethic in action. As this happens, we get to share the information in many ways possible, which is starting to happen right now. There is a wider variety of classes available than ever before. You can find them on-line or on site, with schedules to fit nearly any schedule. Need a weekend only? 1 day a month? Long weekend, 3 or 4 day intensive? Week or two week, or longer, intensive? They're out there. And as teachers work more, the more people know about the classes, the more people sign up and show up for classes, and the teachers earn a living and have more flexibility to share with those who need it. The last point that comes to mind from Mr. Theis' interview is the dignity of labor. Though society may not, at this moment, respect them the way I understand it once did, there is a great deal we must learn in order to be appropriately re-skilled to live comfortably in more localized community. Here's a quote from Robert Heinlein's Time Enough for Love that I think about for our future:

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

We should have this kind of competency moving forward, to become a “jack of all trades and master of one” as suggested by David Holmgren, is a viable path. There's a lot we need to accomplish to make all of this work. The only way we'll get it done is by taking action ourselves, and showing others what they can accomplish once they start. In order to do that requires a respect and appreciation for the dignity of labor, in our selves and in others.

Resources:
Bob Theis - Architect
Christopher Alexander 8 Forms of Capital by Ethan Roland and Gregory Landua
The Nature of Order by Christopher Alexander
The Omega Institute
National Aging in Place Council
Naturally Occurring Retirement Communities

He joins me to discuss what ecolonomics is, and how he and his colleagues are growing this idea, as well as how you can be a part of the process. Dr. Dorband joined me several months ago to discuss the green hacker space he opened in Colorado as a place for individuals with ideas on how to build technology that leads to a better world can incubate and grow their concepts while also socializing with other like minded people. Today we take that underlying ethos of creativity and making to begin to understand how we can combine ecology and economics to make a living while improving the earth. The audio on this episode wound up a little fuzzy, and thank you to Jay for letting me know this happened with some other recent episode. I did the best I could with the source audio to put this together, which also resulted in some changes behind the scenes to my software so future interviews, hopefully, don't suffer from this same issue. Your feedback is always important for helping to improve the quality of these podcast and I appreciate it.

What impresses me about Dr. Dorband and this work is that there is an organization designed to advance human creativity and technology while also investing in the people who make sustainable and renewable solutions. For me, that's a pretty powerful place to find ourselves in as we work to move through many of the large hurdles ahead of us. As I've said with Eric Toensmeier before, I like civilization and being able to turn the lights on. Let's work together to find ways to keep that a possibility while lifting others up, and applying permaculture to make the landscape, and our lives, more resilient. If you are interested in helping me and Dr. Dorband develop this online maker's forum to investigate ideas, please let me know. Leave a comment here, send me an email, or call me. You can also find Dr. Dorband's contact information at the Institute of Ecolonomics, and reach out to him about this concept, if you'd like to help expand on any of the other projects he's working on, such as your own local green hackerspace or business accelerator, or if you have an idea of your own and would like to apply for the best of the best. Whatever road we find ourselves on, together we are part of the solution for a better and brighter future.

Resources:
Institute of Ecolonomics

After looking into Mr. Mulcahy and the material available, viewing the World Stove website, and recently returning from my experience at the Pennsylvania Association for Sustainable Agriculture (PASA) sponsored workshop on Charcoal and Biochar, I wanted to interview Nathaniel. The elegance of the system and ability to turn what would otherwise be waste products into fuel is an enticing prospect. During this interview we discuss his background and how he came to create World Stove, which was an even more interesting route than how many of us come to permaculture. We also talk about the World Stove mission to create local jobs, improve local economies, and insure that waste biomass is used as a fuel, all while reducing emissions, sequester carbon, and building soil. May you enjoy this time with Nathaniel as much as I did.

Resources:
World Stove
World Stove YouTube Channel

Wayne spent the last several years growing his pasture based meat operation while also being a steward of the land. This has not been an easy path, as you'll hear, because, like some other farmers, he works off-the-farm during the week and returns to home each night to continue tending his animals. Wayne also happens to be my wife's cousin, so I got to speak with him about his farming and sample some chicken at a family event.

Ever since then I've wanted to interview him because he's doing the work of starting a stewardship farm from the ground up in the best way he can. In our conversation, we cover the early days and inspiration that bring us to this moment, and what it's like to continue the transition to farm full time. Along the way, we also talk about his inspiration to become a farmer, the truth of profit and loss in farming, and the role of the community in getting started and continuing to grow. As with all of my guests, I'm thankful for his candor in this conversation, his willingness to share the ups and downs of what he's doing, and what the life of a new farmer is like. Community support holds a great deal of meaning to me as I look beyond the visible structures of permaculture and to the invisible ones. While putting together this show I received Wayne's newsletter and in there he offered support and recommended his customers attend, a local farmer's market to help bolster the beginnings of the market. Throughout the independent and small-scale producers I see this mutual aid occurring.

As we take care of the earth and ourselves, do what is matters to us, raise ourselves up Maslow's "Hierarchy of Needs", and fulfill the first two ethics of permaculture, it becomes easier to have a surplus to share, and with it to help share our surplus and help the needs of others. We then offer a hand-up through our knowledge, experience, and gifts, that teaches someone how to grow food and live a better life. As we share the surplus, it's easier to limit consumption. You can make better choices that aren't drastic or hasty, and in turn, care for the Earth in a better way. Care for your self and your family and friends in a better way, freeing up more resources to share with others. Once this ball gets rolling down the hill it becomes ever more self-sustaining, which is important because it's easy to teach and understand the physical sides of permaculture, but those invisible ones, being intangible, are hard to grasp. I think the roots of the invisible rest most firmly in the ethics of permaculture.

Resources:
Herring's Green Grass Farm
Herring's Green Grass Farm Facebook Page
American Pastured Poultry Producers Association (APPPA)
Pennsylvania Association for Sustainable Agriculture (PASA) 

He and I talk about his route to permaculture, the work of Whole Systems Design, the book, and his 10 acre farm, where he performed the research for the book. Along the way we talk about how and where design happens, the design process, the role of active versus passive observation, and some of the 75 patterns and principles that emerged from his work that makes it into the book. I'd heard of Ben but didn't know what he's been doing, though a friend of mine in the local permaculture community thinks highly of his very active research into resilient systems. Then a listener suggested I contact Ben for an interview, with some others seconding the recommendation, so I knew this was someone I needed to speak with. And I'm thankful that I did. Ben has a firm grasp of the design process and the experience necessary to make implementation happen through his role as a professional designer. Also, he's walking the road necessary to expand the community's knowledge of what does and doesn't work while paying attention to the unique needs of someone living in the North-Eastern United States. If you are interested in his book, you can see the table of contents on his website. When purchasing the book, please consider buying it directly from Ben or the publisher, Chelsea Green.

Resources:
The Resilient Farm and Homestead (Chelsea Green)
About The Resilient Farm and Homestead (Whole Systems Design)
Ben Falk
Ben Falk on Vimeo
Whole Systems Design, LLC.
Permaculture Design Courses with Ben and Whole Systems Design.
Whole Systems Design (Facebook Page)
Whole Systems Design (Youtube Channel)
Dr. John Todd
National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS)

If you'd like to hear the first episode on this topic check out my interview with Erin Harvey.

I wanted to speak with Kirsten on this subject because of her candor in some of our conversations about what it's like to run a farm, yet I didn't know her story or that of Joshua Farm. We've shared lunch at a farm tour and spoke about broader issues involving urban farming in Harrisburg, our state capital. We've attended the same meetings involving local initiatives where Kirsten asked pointed questions and provided personal insights. In many ways she is a mainstay of the regional sustainable farming community, and I'm thankful she's here. Her passion for farming and devotion to this work is ever-present. I found this out when, during the interview, her doorbell rang. I paused the conversation as she answered the door, and there was a customer to pick up their CSA share. At nearly 9 o'clock at night.

That Kirsten contemplates her role as a farmer and the role of Joshua Farm is also apparent. I say that because I think is the least I've spoken during an interview. Each time I was ready to interject and ask a question, her narrative continued in the direction I planned to take us, and the unspoken question was answered. Lastly among my many reasons for interviewing Kirsten is that I visited Joshua Farm.  Being local, this site provided a place I could go to in order to learn and in turn provide a more useful interview.

After the interview wrapped there were some things Kirsten wanted to add that didn't make it into the interview proper. One of those is “SPIN Farming”, which is a program designed to get a small scale farm up and running, profitably, in a short amount of time. Though Kirsten doesn't agree with everything in this method, there are some pieces that you may find useful. There is some information on the website, though most of the content appears to be made available through purchased PDF downloads or books, at various price points, with the total package running several hundred dollars. I can't speak to the content or value of this product, and am not endorsing it in any way, but you can find out more by going to spinfarming.com and taking a look around. There is a mix of freely available content to get you started, and see if you might be interested.

Her other recommendation I noted was Growing for Market magazine, which offers numerous resources for farmer's who grow to sell. I'm not familiar with it beyond Kirsten's mention, but when I went to the main page of the website, there was Richard Wiswall with a recommendation for the magazine. I mention Richard Wiswall because Kirsten recommended his book The Organic Farmer's Business Handbook. For the number of times I've heard his name and this book mentioned, it seems like the perfect place to start your research into the business of starting your own farm. Looking into Agsquared farm planning software the current feature set includes:

• Interactive Farm Map.
• Crop Planner.
• Planting Calculators.
• Daily Calendar.
• Smart Scheduling.
• Farm Journal.
• Spreadsheet Importer.

Resources:
Joshua Farm
The Joshua Group
Agsquared
Growing for Market
Richard Wiswall

Farms:
Goldfinch Farm CSA
Greensgrow Farms
Mildred's Daughter